Posted by Roger Johnson on 9/4/2024, 2:37 pm, in reply to "Ryan Frame Essays "
Really enjoyed reading Ryan's Essay.. I copied it to 'word' and enlarged the text. If my magazines had essays this well done I'd probably have kept the subscriptions..
Roger J Roger Johnson
Re: Ryan Frame Essays
Posted by Bill Holtan on 9/4/2024, 10:03 am, in reply to "Ryan Frame Essays "
Here is one I received from Ryan. I have to paste the whole thing here, as I have no way to make a link to it. Grouse Dog: Bred Or Made Ryan Frame (sent to me by e-mail, Dec. 2011) I can't think of a worse possible subject for an internet debate as this. There is no possible way to even agree on the terms. What even constitutes a good grouse dog, brings about widely varying opinions. Most any dog can point a grouse, if conditions are right and the bird sits well. Young grouse in July and August are often not that difficult to point, which is why the oldest grouse championships, the PA, the Lake States and the Grand run late, after the cover has come down. And in many places Ruffed Grouse are not all that wild at all compared to other places. A friend of mine, who trained gun dogs on a preserve professionally 20 years ago, told of a dog that he worked that he told the owner was lacking in nose. However, the owner killed grouse over the dog and declared the dog competent. When the owner was asked about the bird work, my friend determined that, as he suspected, there were many stops to bump going on with shots afforded. The fact is that there are many people whose dogs handle grouse fine, that think that there is no way that any dog could possibly be better... even though they see only a handful of dogs for comparison. I wrote ten years ago in a PDJ article about a friend of mine that was invited out by a fellow with the “greatest grouse dog.” When my friend's dog pointed several grouse, and the other dog did not, the fellow denied that other dog was even pointing the grouse, even though the grouse were flushing right off the dog's nose, and then abruptly and without a word took his dog and left. Comparisons can be tough on one's opinion, and if the fellow had been more realistic, he would know that. In most cases, head-to-head comparisons done just once may not tell the whole story. Dogs have good days and bad days just like people. The whole nature VERSUS nurture muddles the matter too. A dog without the genetics can't point grouse, but neither can a dog with great genes that has never been out of the kennel its first five years and then taken hunting. Both are needed. It's nature AND nurture. That said, my perspective on what constitutes an outstanding grouse dog has been shaped by having worked with many dogs, and by seeing even more in direct competition at grouse and woodcock trials. To perhaps oversimplify: bird finding is something that I value highly and contains a bundle of genetic traits including nose, intelligence, hunt, good eyesight to be able to negotiate cover, and the physical ability to be able to push through cover, juke, jump etc., and still carry a strong pace. And a number of other qualities. So while bird finding does not tell it all, it does tell a lot. About 1995 or thereabouts, I scouted as Dave Hughes won the Minnesota Grouse Championship with Springfield's Judge, a setter dog. Judge had nine grouse finds , all pointed, in the hour. Even if I set that performance aside as an anomaly, he found a lot of birds versus the competition in other events too. But looking at that performance, no dog has had nine finds on those grounds in the 15 odd years since. Yet it WAS done several years prior when Stillmeadow's Jim had nine finds on grouse or thereabouts, at the National Amateur Grouse Championship as a young dog, but did not place because he had some other lapses. Stillmeadow's Jim was Judge's sire. One of the most talented young bird finders I have seen was Springfield's Orvis. He found birds in about every trial Dave ran him in. When he won the Invitational, he and the runner-up out birded all of the other 12 dogs combined by a fair margin in Gladwin, MI. The runner-up, Magic's Rocky Bellboa, was also a talented bird finder and a full brother to Orvis AND both are grandsons of Springfield's Judge. Long Gone Madison was one of the best I saw and her mother (Long Gone Agnes) was tremendous too. Certainly there is a connection for this attribute, but A) these dogs were also worked with from the time they were young, and B) A number of dogs out of these lines were not as good as them in the bird-finding category, even though they were worked with too. My own opinion is that good, competent grouse dogs can come from a variety of places and genetic backgrounds. Outstanding grouse dogs can come from other backgrounds too. It's just a matter of odds and I think your odds are better, if the parentage excelled on these birds, though again, there will still be some duds regardless. And for what it’s worth, pretty much by definition, what is “Outstanding” on grouse can only be reasonably determined by comparison to a fairly large number of other dogs.Solon Rhode
on 9/2/2024, 1:26 pm