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    Flagging!

    Posted by Mark Payton on 1/29/2021, 7:59 pm

    I've always attributed flagging to either:

    * Heredity
    * Uncertainty
    * Pressure

    I've got a young dog that's had no pressure applied to her. She points about half her birds staunch and the other half she flags starting from the base (and this with birds that she KNOWS are there, so this isn't an uncertainty issue).

    Any thoughts? I remember someone claiming that flagging at the base means something different than flagging just the upper portion, but I can't remember what the difference supposedly means.

    BTW, she's 15 months old and I'm talking about wild quail: both covies and singles.

      Re: Flagging!

      Posted by Mark Payton on 2/23/2021, 7:24 pm, in reply to "Flagging!"

      I hunted her this weekend, and she's batting about .500 on her flagging and sometimes will fluctuate between being staunch and flagging:

      I hunted her on Saturday and she points staunch but after I had trouble getting the birds up, she started to flag (the birds then got up about 40 yards later).

      I ran her on planted birds (pigeons in launchers), and on one bird she points but is flagging. She was about 7' and I know that she was positive a bird was there. I stand there to let her hold it for 45-60 seconds or so, and while I'm waiting, I hear the pigeon make a scratching sound in the launcher WHICH MAKES HER GO STAUNCH and she remains staunch.

      I did learn that she will point rabbits. I had previously thought that she wasn't interested in them.

        Re: Flagging!

        Posted by Bobby Phillips on 2/22/2021, 10:27 am, in reply to "Flagging!"

        I have seen two other situations where dogs flag: 1) some dogs flag when they can see the bird, staunch otherwise. 2) some dogs flag when birds are moving, staunch otherwise
        . In each of these cases the dog is telling you useful information. One has to decide if it is good or bad!!

          Re: Flagging!

          Posted by Mark Payton on 2/6/2021, 8:57 pm, in reply to "Flagging!"

          I rarely talk to my dog around game (either before or after she points). Here are two videos from a workout today: one pointing and one backing. I gave her three birds to point, and she looked great on two of them. On the third bird (actually, #2 in the order in which they were found), she flagged for a while but then got staunch.

          Pointing:





          Backing:


            Re: Flagging!

            Posted by Solon on 1/31/2021, 5:44 am, in reply to "Flagging!"

            Based on my experience with different breeds, flagging is associated in part with a lower intensity to point. The only I can add is a gimmick I use that I think helps. That is to make a phishing noise to tighten the dog up while on point. Here are two videos that show this with Gabe, a setter pup 10 1/2 wks old. These are consecutive birds during the same training drill.








            These pups were bred by Ed Stephenson, NY.

            Solon Rhode

              Re: Flagging!

              Posted by Mark Payton on 1/31/2021, 7:46 am, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

              I’ve already tried that. I too have had a fair amount of luck with similar sounds (I typically make a “sssss” sound), and sometimes stomping your feet works too. Neither of those tricks have worked with this dog.

              Thanks for your input and nice pup!

              Re: Flagging!

              Posted by Ray Gubernat on 1/30/2021, 2:38 pm, in reply to "Flagging!"

              Mmark -

              I think you can add one more "cause" to flagging and that just might be what is going on.

              That cause is a burning desire to "dive in and get" the birds, but knowing that ain't what YOU want.

              I have seen this on a couple of my dogs over the years, as youngsters. One outgrew it, with waiting out the dog on point, repetitions, bench work, stroking and styling, and re-positioning and such. The other one...not so much.

              RayG

                Re: Flagging!

                Posted by Mark Payton on 1/30/2021, 6:22 pm, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

                I've heard some say never walk in front of a flagging dog. I've had some success using my voice to move her on. Perhaps that only solved points of uncertainty, i.e., getting her to move forward until she was certain. Other times she just keeps her feet planted and flags. I've tried pushing her on her rear (which has worked a few times on other dogs), but while she resists with her feet to move forward, she doesn't stop flagging.

                Here's a covey find from late yesterday where she flags followed by a covey today when she didn't. And a previous covey yesterday, I saw her slam them without flagging and then 10 seconds later she STARTS flagging!?!? I sure hope she outgrows it, because I've only had one dog at her age that could find as many wild birds as her and I've owned over two dozen dogs over the years.







                  Re: Flagging!

                  Posted by DICK on 1/31/2021, 9:28 am, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

                  UNCERTAINTY is a cause.

                  When your pup points, make an effort to swing wide on your approach to the point. The pup will be able to see you quicker and not have an unknown coming in on the butt.


                  RLS

                    Re: Flagging!

                    Posted by Mike singleton on 2/2/2021, 10:53 am, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

                    Especially with young dogs once they become solid as some as they start flagging pop the bird. That helps keeps their attention and intensity. If you make them wait and they figure out its you that makes the bird flush they will start looking at you and waiting for you to make it happen. Don't underestimate the intelligence of the dog, their smarter than you think. I also think working with very young dogs on planted birds is fun but not great for the dog.

                      Re: Flagging!

                      Posted by AusableDave on 2/6/2021, 10:53 am, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

                      Try silent training. No whoa or talking to the dog at all. No touching or stroking him up . I don’t agree with not enough point. Many will hold point and point everything as a young pup but still flag. Many dogs are very responsive to voice. By flagging they are responding to voice. There way of communicating back. If that does not work try whacking a few birds on the ground in front of them. Some dogs it is just genetic throwback. I have seen a bitch at a top kennel for AA pointers that produced it in multiple litters with different sires. A friend of mine bought one and called the breeder about the problem. He said yes that bitch throws that sometimes but would not replace the dog.

                        Re: Flagging!

                        Posted by Birddogitis on 2/28/2021, 9:38 am, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

                        Well said AusableDave, re silent training. Couldn't agree with you more!

                          Re: Flagging!

                          Posted by Birddogitis on 2/28/2021, 9:30 am, in reply to "Re: Flagging!"

                          There are many extensions of the already offered sources for flagging. Another contingent of the "genetics" offering is that some dogs - whether you want to call it superior intelligence or not - deduct the ensuing events of the find. They process and either info-overload or simply don't handle the mental process. Some will attribute this to the dog being soft or pressured. It could be the case but not always. I have witnessed 2 dogs do this of late - actually they flagged then laid down! It is easy to say that it was pressure or the training process HOWEVER I determined that these 2 LITTERMATES both were very bright and responded well to basic training - most of which I use almost no verbals, no whoa", etc. etc. It is my observation that these littermates both put pressure on themselves to be successful in THEIR perception of the expectation. Since I don't speak on their finds, I have tried to "lighten it up", kill birds, etc. etc. The female doesn't flag anymore. The male still flags then lies down. I have some things yet to try but I still assign this to genetics. Dogs with super-intelligence or easily stressed (not unlike humans) simply struggle with common occurrences. Some self-overcome them in time. Some don't...ever. It is their fabric. JMO

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