The Old Scout Message Board

Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 4, 2020, 11:05 am
Edited by board administrator December 4, 2020, 11:08 am

I probably say this every year but think about a top 9 point roster AA team. They hold themselves back from competing for weekend tournament wins because they don't want to go over 9 points just for that one chance they can win the AA at the end of the year which could get cancelled due to covid or a hurricane.

MPT as a AA team made the finals or winners finals of the Cincy Major, the Smoky, one of the Virginia Duals, and the Major World Series but held their roster back from picking up that one or two final pieces they needed to win each weekend in order to try and win a AA World where they went 0-2.

Now this year we have Bay Area/Pure, Prodigy/Sonnys, and SNI/LaFamiglia (who has already won the AA) doing the exact same thing.

Now go to this years MPT/Juno Major team. They are a great team and could have a lot of success. But as a 1st year Major team they may not even have the regular season or Major World Series success that their 'AA' team had in 2020. Softball is a crazy sport.

Good luck to all of these teams but I guess I just don't understand the lure of trying to win one world over trying to win each and every weekend. But then I have always thought differently then most...sigh

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Dale...TM60+ on December 4, 2020, 11:38 am, in reply to "Conversation about AA teams"

My teams were in this spot for more then 10 years.

In our case the mindset can be described as... we can’t or will not buy the horses to compete with the multi HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS major teams game in and game out so let’s try to build a team to win the A or AA world.

When we played in major events we knew the field
was tilted strongly against us when we played a true major team and we understood if they had an off game and we played great we COULD, MAYBE, upset them and win.

If you really wanted to get AA teams to move up... you need to make it much less expensive to do it... and that would require strong player limits on MAJOR TEAMS.

Ideas to do this are many... mine would be...

* Limit major rosters to 14 players

* Create a chip total for the major division that would allow AA Sponors to move up at a slight increase in paying players cost$... ie... just two or three more envelope guys...
I would look at the chip divide between AA and A and maybe have the same chip difference between AA and Major

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Dale... TM60+ on December 4, 2020, 11:40 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

How many chip points did Dan and Travis have last year?

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 4, 2020, 11:46 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"
Edited by board administrator December 4, 2020, 11:57 am

I don't make the rules and I don't specifically want teams to move to major until they are at that 9 point limit and are making it to Sunday consistently. Then at that point I don't understand their infatuation with AA Worlds.

AA is meant for like 5 to 7.5 point teams. AA is not meant for 9 point teams that have 4 guys that played Major the year before.

The teams this year in the AA finals had much less than 9 points. I don't remember exactly but Xtreme I think was less than 7 points and Maroadi/SNI who won was less than 3 I think. Sports Reach who finished 3rd had like 2 points and Baugh Ford who finished 4th hardly had any points.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 4, 2020, 11:55 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Dan Smith who usually carries a ton of players was the #1 seed and dominated the regular season with a much smaller roster than usual and had around 15 roster points.

Resmondo who only won one regular season tournament but then won the major had like 30 people total as part of the team. They had 19 Major players for 23.75 roster points which is probably the most ever by far.

Anarchy/MPT who led the Major World Series winners final by 3 runs going into the 7th inning before losing and finishing 2nd at the major had 8.75 roster points.

So roster points didn't seem to matter a whole lot during the year or at the major or AA worlds.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Real answer on December 4, 2020, 2:47 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Team chemistry trumps any kind of point system when it comes down to it. You put a group of guys slightly less talented against a group of guys more talented but the team with good chemistry vs bad chemistry will go farther in these type of tournaments. May not be that way throughout the regular season but when it’s time to battle for it all teams who get along and play for eachother win more often than not.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DS on December 4, 2020, 3:13 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Is that what happened to Dan Smith at The Series?

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Yea on December 4, 2020, 3:49 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

I would say yes that was part of the problem. Just look at what’s gone on since the season ended.....

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DS & MPT on December 5, 2020, 8:07 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

I believe MPT beat DS multiple times because of team chem, better attitiudes, less selfish paid to play stress, and better coaching period. When you need that Dan Smith and Bad Draw money to pay your car payment, players butts start to pucker.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Dale on December 5, 2020, 8:16 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Dale, then why did MPT scrap the idea of winning the AA worlds and went major? All their players returned accept McBride who they replayed with DJ. If they stayed AA the conference who started the year with 5 major teams in 2020 to now 3 in 2021. How is this good for the conference and why are teams going down to AA while MPT is going up? Doesnt make sense.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 8:20 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

They pickedup list players so had to go major

They could have stayed AA

Also if they hadn’t picked up list players then those players could have gone to a top AA team and that AA team would have went Major.

So anyway you look at it there would have been another Major team

Pure wanted to play Major but lost too many players and couldn’t find replacements

Players for the most part want to play down.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Rec Ball on December 5, 2020, 8:26 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

If you are playing Conference and not trying to make it to the top, isn't it kind of pointless?

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 8:37 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"
Edited by board administrator December 5, 2020, 8:42 am

Apparently not.

There are at least 3 AA teams right now stopping at 9 points to play AA. I guarantee you most of the players on those teams are saying "don't pick up those last 3 guys we need to win games each weekend so we can stay AA". Or those players are saying "we need to appeal this guy or that guy off the list so we can get better but still play AA".

There is probably one guy on each of those teams saying lets get what we need, who cares if that makes us major. But maybe not even one.

Heck we had the #2 team in the country fold midseason because they didn't think they could win the Major in their 1st year. It is just a different way of thinking in the conference for better or worse it is what it is. Almost every team and every player thinks they have to be able to have a good shot at worlds or it isn't worth it. Maybe softball would actually be better with only the Major World Series. No other worlds. Then teams would not hold back on roster pickups. Lists wouldn't matter. Etc.

Just the way its been for many years.

I had players verbally assault me at tournaments saying the classification committee didn't approve their appeal which cost their team the ability to play down...

Very rare is the player that joins a team and says "lets move up". In fact there may not be an actual example of that. Look at all the players that played for Thunder Major team and were ranked 2nd in the country and went down to 'A' teams. Did they tell those teams "lets get so and so and move to AA"? Probably not.

I am not mad about teams not moving up, I am just saying it like it is. If a 'AA' looks at Resmondo and says "we can't beat that at the Major" then they aren't going to go Major. It is that simple. Even though Bad Draw, Premier, Category5, and MPT all had a good shot at beating Resmondo at the Major and at some point mid game were leading or close to leading.

The automatic home team to the higher seed really hurts the competition at the Major World Series. I am not sure why AA and A teams voted for that rule. Crazy.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Wilkins on December 5, 2020, 9:09 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

It’s about winning a world title period. That’s at any level. I promise you sni was very happy with the AA title even though they did not win the major. Don’t forget they were an A team and did not do well at A world. Most AA teams are happy to win 1-2 events a year , be playing in that last two games on Saturday and making the major. So I don’t understand the 9 point issue. Usssa gave 9 points so take full advantage of it. Most teams will trade an 2-2 weekend every weekend for a world title. Just my perspective

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 9:59 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

I'm pretty sure you just typed the exact same thing I have been saying. That teams and players prefer to lose more games on an average weekend and play for a lower world at the end of the year.

The problem is the point system was created for teams as they move up and not necessarily created so that a sponsor can create a AA team out of thin air that wasn't C then B then A then AA. And create a brand new AA team using players that played Major the year before. But you are correct they won't put in the necessary rules so it is what it is. Have at it.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Wilkins on December 5, 2020, 10:12 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

If you regionalized it like senior ball. That would be the only way to make it fair. CA,IL,FL,NY, TX. Would all have great major teams.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 10:46 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

That is called challenge cup.

I don’t think most sponsors want to be told where they can get players from but maybe I am wrong.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Wilkins on December 5, 2020, 11:04 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

No it’s not. That’s actually laughable that you would compare the challenge cup to regionalizing conference teams. So from IL is Travis Clark and Kevin Bazet playing with precision? You could say the same thing about points. If you make the rules equal then most would follow. Well if they are enforced. You would actually have more sponsors in the game because it wouldn’t cost 300k to run a major team. But hey I’m I business guy what do I know.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 11:24 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Seems like we are not talking about the same things.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 11:41 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"
Edited by board administrator December 5, 2020, 11:42 am

We had Pure Sports and Backman that wanted to have Major teams in 2021. Why are they not Major?

Because they couldn't get the players they wanted. They couldn't even get the players that went to SNI, Sonnys, and Bay Area AA teams to play major with them.

So its a player problem currently. Players don't want to play Major because I guess they think "they can't win worlds at major". Other years its a sponsor problem. Sponsors that don't want to play Major because they think they can't win it. I am not saying this is a good or bad thing. I am saying it is the way it has been for almost 3 decades now. I am just stating facts. I am not saying the players or sponsors views are bad or wrong. They are just different views than fans. I am a fan. There are only 10 of us fans so what we say doesn't mean anything. And that's ok.

You are saying there would be more major teams if there were regional rules. I don't know the answer but I know we could of had 6 Major teams this year instead of 4 but players chose to play AA at 9 points instead of major at 13 points. Can't really blame them. Lets say you are a major player and you play on the 5th best major team and you have a good year and your team ends up 3rd or 4th. That team will start to retool with the elite players and replace you to take that next step into 2nd or 1st. So you can understand why the player just wants to play down.

It is what it is. We all wish Major had 32 teams but realistically it has never truly been more than 4 or 5 and I don't personally see roster rules changing that. Elite players are elite players.

I don't make the rules and I am not even in meetings where rules are discussed. You are with One Nation, should I assume One Nations Major division is going to have regional roster rule restrictions and thus will flourish?

Thanks for the good discussion.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by No one on December 5, 2020, 1:07 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Maybe this is slightly off subject but there isn’t as much of an incentive for A/AA during the regular season. All year they play for points just to make the WS and help their seed at their respective world. They get money the WS but idk if there is a difference in 1-16 payout? It seems that the system is set up now that A/AA teams can be happy with 3-2 type tournaments bc they know those type of points will get them to the WS and they hope to be a top 1 or 2 in their class to set them up for their world to be a top 4 type seed. What more incentive do they have for them to add now given the system? I don’t have the answer and I don’t even know if money is the answer.

On that subject if an A team makes Sunday of a bigger event they know those points set them up for a top seed at their world, anymore of those points for 1 more win is doubtful to make much of a difference. If there is little incentive for one more win why punish them if they want to get their flights. You could cost them money when they don’t gain anything. I’m sorry you lose a game for content and I get that but from their view they aren’t gaining much.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Biscuit 22 on December 5, 2020, 2:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

If you want to grow the major program and grow AA at the same time then usssa needs to stop dropping people off the major and watch lists - if they were smart they would add an Elite major tag to about 25 people - the best of the best get the elite tag . We all know not every major play is equal - there are some that are just much bigger game changers than other .

Add the elite tag to about 25 people , as well as keeping the guys like mooch, hunt, chent all at major ( all three were dropped to watch this year ) . Keep more people on the major list , more on the watch list and in turn you will get more major and more AA teams because the more people that are worth points there are the harder it will be to build teams and keep them under the point limits .

Elite tag - 2 points
Major tag 1.25
Watch tag - .75

This wouldn’t affect major teams at all , but would force more AA teams to major cause harder to keep under 9 points , and in turn more A teams would go to A .

Some of the people they dropped off the lists this year is comical - mooch is still a top 5 pitcher in the game - Mooch , chent , and hunt all were starters on a major team at start of 2020 . No reason them and other like them should have been dropped . If they were not dropped pures still major this year . I don’t blame pure for going AA - usssa gave them the perfect playbook to win another AA title .

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 2:34 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

As a member of the committee I know we did not know who was playing on what team when we did the list. Pure/Bay was created after the list not before and Pure isn’t Major because all the players left.

Mooch nor Chent started for their teams this past year at the tournaments I went to but people that say they are Major players aren’t wrong.

I have never heard anyone at usssa say “our goal is to create more AA or Major teams” so I am not sure where you are getting that information.

But I like the Elite player idea. The rule that would prevent stacked AA teams is to have a chip limit for AA and A. But when I proposed that rule they would not take a vote on it so it is what it is. There will continue to only be a few AA teams because of the AA teams with elite players all on one or two teams.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Biscuit 22 on December 5, 2020, 2:48 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

- why wouldn’t the goal of the association be to grow the only
Major program in the country ? They should want as many major teams as possible .

- I forgot to add - put a points limit on major teams as well - not so much to limit the number of major players as starters on the team - but to prevent what ressy had this year where they had a full second team of bench guys that were all major players . Maybe cap it at 18-20 points .

If you did that , added elite tags , and more people to major and watch list - it would give more AA teams quality major guys that they would then fee comfortable jumping to the major division and competing . And the trickle down affect would increase AA teams and even A teams .

As far at pure goes and comity knowing who was playing with who when they decided to drop those guys - that should have no bearing - they are all major caliber guys and shouldn’t of been dropped no matter who they were going to play with . Mooch and vitz were 1A and 1B pitchers for pure last year - he was never the back up to vitz I can assure you that .
Chent was playing majority of the games for thunder , just cause he might not of started every game of your playing the majority your still a starter .

It’s no big deal - usssa is the one that’s going to look bad when mooch is holding his 6th AA mvp award at end of year .

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 2:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Many around the conference think that reducing the lists make AA teams closer to Major teams and that is the way to go.

So there are a lot of different views. None are wrong.

Good conversation

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 5, 2020, 3:03 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Mooch and Chente were voted watch list in the public poll as well as the committee. Obviously it is a borderline and controversial decision where both sides are right.

I think Mooch averaged 1 at bat a game. LC started all or all but one game at the major.

But yes I agree Sonnys, SNI, and Bay Area should not be allowed to have so many players that played Major last year on the same AA team

23.75 vs. 8.75 Points

Posted by Pat on December 5, 2020, 11:40 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

That also means Resmondo really had two complete Major caliber teams in a single roster. Why not cap at 14/15 players and stop a sponsor with huge pockets from holding the talent hostage?

Its not that an 8.75 team can't win -- but who knows if it's a more even playing field if they had 1 or 2 pieces from the mega roster back in the free agent mix.

Re: 23.75 vs. 8.75 Points

Posted by Old School on December 6, 2020, 8:10 am, in reply to "23.75 vs. 8.75 Points"

Dump AA and just have Major, A, and B. Give A a few more points and those are your 3 choices. It was that way for years.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Will on December 7, 2020, 10:46 am, in reply to "Conversation about AA teams"

So I assume if a AA team picked up those players and becomes a Major team for the season they would not be aloud to drop players down to the 9 point limit for one weekend and also play the AA worlds. If not why if they bring a legal roster to play in the AA?

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 7, 2020, 10:49 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Because the conference classifies teams and would not allow it to protect the AA division.

Else what would prevent Resmondo from taking their best 9 points and playing AA?

Check USA for what happens when Elite players are allowed in AA. It is a good tournament but they don’t have to protect real AA teams.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Kirsten on December 7, 2020, 11:17 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

My take on this subject is pretty simple. Winning tournaments throughout the year means nothing in the conference other than accumulating points to seed yourself in the Major World Series. That alone sends the message that everyone plays for one tournament at the end of the year. You could certainly get teams to forget about the points when building a team if there were more incentives to win tournaments throughout the year.

For the most part AA teams have no chance to compete for a title at the Major World Series because you have teams like Ressy and DS who are loaded with talent and stadium power (Yes, I know you’re going to say MPT did but they will prove my point later). So if the end goal is to win a ring, which it is for every team in the country, then why wouldn’t you give yourself the best chance to do so when building your team? AA teams still get to compete at the Major so best case you can compete for two rings on the year, where as if you’re a major team you’re only competing for one.

Personally, if our sponsor came out and told us that we were going to play major next year then I would welcome it with open arms. However, I am not sure I see the incentive for the sponsors to do so.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Will on December 7, 2020, 11:32 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

1.) For USA Its no different then letting a certain amount of Major players play the AA in Usssa. I.e. the point limitations. So like you said before allowing teams with 9 points how does that protect the "real AA teams" that only carry 5 or less points like you said.

2.) The only people that care who wins the AA world are the AA teams. Everyone looks forward to the Major which most AA teams play in anyway.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 7, 2020, 11:36 am, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Most AA teams don't even have their full roster for the major so the AA teams most definitely think AA Worlds is more important than the Major World.

Allowing Elite players from Major teams in AA Worlds would ruin AA, period.

I'll throw up a poll.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Will on December 7, 2020, 12:08 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

It may or may not "ruin" AA worlds and if so, how would it? If every team follows the point system I would assume it should be an even playing field... correct? Otherwise the point system means nothing. It's really no different then a team entering the AA world with 9 points competing against teams with 7,5,3 or 0 points like you mentioned.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 7, 2020, 12:12 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

No. The point system isn't used for Major. It is only used for AA and below. So having Elite players in AA would ruin it.

Not all points are actually equal. Elite players are elite players. If you think different then I don't think you have been around the game at the top levels.

Just my opinion.

Good discussion.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by BPic on December 7, 2020, 12:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

At the end of the day, you just do not have enough parity between the AA and Major teams. I kind of look at it this way. Between Major, AA and A, it really should be down to two classes if there was parity. Major and Sub Major. There is more parity between AA and A, as proven by the AA World. That parity is not existent between AA and Major. So could it not be that the reason for such a gap in parity is limits? AA and A have limits in building rosters. Major does not. Find a way to limit those Major teams roster-wise within reasonable expectations, so not to get sponsors upset to the point they want to pull their money and leave. But if thats the case, doesnt that tell you that championships are won more on budgets and not roster challenges? I would think that it would mean something more on winning with a team truly built with roster challenges, than budget challenges. I feel the whole spirit of the game and competition is being lost as it is right now in that its always going to be the Dan Smith and Resmondo types winning it all. Was that the way it was back in the 70s? 80s? 90s? If you're putting together an all star team such as the USA teams, and 70-80% of your roster is the top 2 teams in the Major, then that should say a lot to where things are. I would much rather see the possibility of 8 to 10 teams in contention rather than 2 to 3. Otherwise just play a best of 5 series format with the top 4 teams seeded. Unfortunately, still be the about the same luster and finish as the 18 team two n out would be currently.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 7, 2020, 12:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

AA Teams this past year were 20-45 vs Major teams. I would say that is as good as it has ever been.

We don't know what the team budgets were so I am not sure where you are going with that.

But yes the top Major teams dominated in the 80's and 90's just like they do in the 2000's.

https://www.softballcenter.com/2020-softballcenter-computer-rankings/

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 7, 2020, 12:50 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

A Major team that only won one tournament all year won the Major.

A AA team that won zero tournaments all year finished 2nd at the Major.

An A team won the AA.

A AA team that didn't do much all year finished 2nd and 4th at the AA.

An A team finished 3rd at the AA.

I would say that was all pretty good parity this year.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by DW on December 7, 2020, 7:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

I'm not sure there is a prize that would entice AA teams to want to give up their AA World to better compete in the regular season.

I would have to say I think winning the Smoky means something but your post definitely describes todays thinking.

Re: Conversation about AA teams

Posted by Agree on December 7, 2020, 8:30 pm, in reply to "Re: Conversation about AA teams"

Would really make the fields more competitive also. And I think more sponsors would stick around. I think when the conference was new some teams tried to keep some of their teams regionalized for the most part.

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