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Grade requirement?

Posted by HS Assistant on 4/15/2025, 7:46 am

Hi there!

I've noticed a correlation between some of my non varsity band students' grades and their effort in band in general. For instance, a kid in my group who is only mediumly reliable for my rehearsals (behavior in class, after school, etc.) has grades of failing or near 70 in other classes as well. His grade is currently a 77 in my band class.

In the future, should a kid like this end up in a lower band if one exists? In my program, we have 4 bands. I'm thinking perhaps he would be a better fit for band 3 or 4 instead of 2.

Do any programs keep other grades in mind (English, math, etc.) when placing kids in band classes? This is for the HS level.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Philosopher on 4/15/2025, 4:55 pm, in reply to "Grade requirement?"

How you do anything is how you do everything.

There is a very strong correlation between students who earn a spot in the top band and good grades. They know how to work independently to learn what they need to learn, a skill that works just as well in band as it does in math. There are exceptions, but that's true most of the time.

That said, the only grade consideration for us is a student with a history of losing eligibility will not be placed in the top band or assigned a spot on student leadership. They also will most likely be an alternate in marching band band until they prove themselves. Students with great problems will not be placed on the marching battery either.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by me on 4/15/2025, 4:28 pm, in reply to "Grade requirement?"

I don't see why their grades in non-band classes would determine their spring band placement unless you are in a district that has their own eligibility rules regarding UIL CSR.

Maybe there is an argument to be made that a lower band would play easier music and free up time for study in other areas, but kids don't think or act that way in my experience. You'd also be undermining the development of the player (and, by extension, your band program) by placing them in a group below their ability level.

Truth be told, if my director tried to demote me because he wasn't happy with my grade in geometry, I'd quit.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Kinda on 4/15/2025, 10:46 am, in reply to "Grade requirement?"

We got away from doing auditions a few years ago and just do band placements for our four bands. While the student's grades "dont matter" for CSR, they matter for most other events, but more importantly my argument for not moving them into higher ensembles is simply this: They are clearly having issues with their grades. Maybe they need to be in an ensemble that is a little bit less challenging or demanding of their time. I try to have conversations with the student to see what the issue is and I may even have conversations with the teachers to get their input of the students performance in their class. From my perspective it is not a punishment, but genuinely trying to help them get on the right right.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Beagle on 4/16/2025, 7:43 am, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

"Kinda got away from doing auditions" is a huge red flag for me.

It screams "nepotism" and "favoritism" and possibly every other "ism" you can think of. From a legal point of view, of course.

How can you justify putting X kid in the top band but not Y kid, all else being equal?

If you have enough students to have ability based classes, students should have a legitimate opportunity to demonstrate that ability. Anything else is doing a disservice to your ensembles. The kid in third band who is independently working their tail off to succeed may never get moved up because they're never challenged in class, otherwise.

If grades are an issue, then clearly state that grades and classwork are accounted for as part of the audition process.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Kinda on 4/17/2025, 2:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

Wow, I hope you got a good stretch before taking that huge leap...
I didnt say we "kinda did away." We DID do away with them. We are very clear with our students about placement: Things like region band/solo & ensemble/rehearsal attendance/Weekly playing assignments are the biggest factor in determining their placement and we have a massive spreadsheet with all of this data in it. Honestly, we think that viewing our students individual trends over the course of the entire year is a better indicator of where they should be as opposed to one shot at an etude. So, I would say they have more of an opportunity compared to one audition. We also are able to move some students at the end of the first semester if we really think it is in their best interests. I regularly had kids who did not want to audition at all and would say "can you just put me where you think I should be. I trust you" DONE!
When we used to do auditions, we had constant complaints from students and parents who thought their kid should be in a higher band which was based on nothing, because we recorded them and were able to play audio comparisons of students in each band sound like. But that didn't matter to them. Since we ended this process 5 years ago we have only had two complaints (I still find that hard to believe) and those were scheduling issues which were out of our hands.
The culture in our district is not super competitive, so we have a lot of kids who just like to play in class and are good kids. In addition, I have had many conversations with students like this: "Hey, we kinda have you on the fence between these two bands. We can put you in the higher band where you'll be at the bottom of the section, or we can put you in the next band where you'll be playing first on most music, and you can lead the section in that class." They usually choose the latter.
This only works if you really know your kids/parents and more importantly if they trust you. From the rest of the replies here, it just seems like most people audition to CYA. Our admin supports us. Every program is different.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Agreed on 4/16/2025, 7:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

We do auditions every year. 99% of the time it's a formality, the lists end up exactly where we expected. Every once in a while a kid surprises me or it's a tie breaker. Our audition packet clearly lists "director recommendation" as a factor so I don't mind massaging the results for the kid who had a bad run or the hotshot who can play all of his scales but can't show up to rehearsal. Having the data has so far kept me out of the admin office over auditions but it's there if I need it.

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by BDSO on 4/16/2025, 6:38 pm, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

We don't do auditions any more (haven't for about 15 years). Our handbook states that band placements are based on performance in band throughout the entire band. We state that we factor in playing tests grades throughout the year, attendance (both in school and at performances), grades in all classes, and behavior in all classes. We also state that placement in either band may be contingent on any special programs or classes the student may be required to take. This is a scheduling issue not related to band, but we were told to put it in many years ago after we had kids be placed in the top band who couldn't be in it due to classes such as ESL, dyslexia, athletics, etc. I learned a long time ago that just because a kid can play an audition piece doesn't mean they should be in the top band. Would you place a kid who plays well but fails, skips rehearsals or classes, gets in trouble, and/or has just a bad attitude in the top band? Students "have a legitimate opportunity to demonstrate" they below in the top band all year long. If you aren't paying attention to that and documenting that, that's on you. Arbitrarily placing someone in the top band just because they learned the audition material well enough is "doing a disservice to your ensembles".

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Um... on 4/16/2025, 8:49 am, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

If they're hearing the kids individually on a regular basis, it could work to do away with auditions... but that's a huge "if."

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Interested on 4/15/2025, 3:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

Would you elaborate on a no audition "band placement" system? Do you just put a student in the band you think is appropriate for them?

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by We do dis on 4/16/2025, 7:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

Band placement is based on achievements in all-region and solo and ensemble. We also use in-class performance data such as scale grades and pass-off completion. Also written exams, submitted video recordings, and student learning objective data.

It resembles an audition but not limited to one performance. A former head director used to say "auditions are held every day."

Re: Grade requirement?

Posted by Respectfully on 4/17/2025, 12:35 pm, in reply to "Re: Grade requirement?"

Does the band pay for all-region and solo and ensemble?

If not, then your process is inherently discriminatory based on income and ability to pay.

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