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Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Warhawk on 1/28/2025, 8:31 am

So, here's the situation. One of my seniors was suspended pending the outcome of the investigation for selling a vape to freshman student. I'm also a senior class sponsor and in my discussion with the principal, I was told that we needed to be careful because of double jeopardy. In the band handbook, being assigned to DAEP is grounds for dismissal from the band.

Looks like I'm going to be hamstrung.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Me on 1/30/2025, 9:21 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

We've dealt with it here. It's a no win situation. If an administrator ever wants me to pull them from my program I will. But, I just don't think it's our place to initiate this. Now, if they messed up in our class or at an event, it becomes more about us. Removing kids from a program is a hard road to travel on. Nowadays, admins aren't supportive of that as much. That's a big reason why I think so many programs go to multiple bands. If they are in the non varsity band, they're still in band. We've had an issue like this turn into a board grievance. It wasn't worth fighting over. Honestly, my bleeding heart always wants to give kids second chances at redemption. God speed for y'all.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Harper on 1/29/2025, 2:34 pm, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

I'm very cautious with the use of 'removing a student from band' because it might send the wrong message - the band program is more important than the band students.

Also, this senior would have nowhere to go, and it would be incredibly difficult to change a schedule at this point and keep the student's grades and credits in order as we move towards graduation.

I don't have any idea why the principal used the phrase 'double jeopardy' in this situation. However, I would certainly not call them an idiot as someone suggested below!

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by TYB Host on 1/29/2025, 8:18 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"
Board Administrator

As others have said, double jeopardy is not applicable.

Why would you remove a student for an offense that did not occur in band?

Tim

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Mr. Dude on 1/29/2025, 7:52 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

With this vape thing…it’s an immediate DAEP visit. Before, they had to commit a pretty large offense or commit multiple offenses to earn their trip to DAEP. Where as three years ago, having, holding, selling, using a vape might earn you 5 days ISS.

I would take that into consideration. Grounds for removal is not necessarily immediate removal. Has he been a pain in the butt for the entire 4 years? I would make sure you consider all ramifications of your decision (not just on this kid, but all others, and any precedence it may set) before doing it, and I would really try to have admin support on your decision. Because if the parents will make a stink, and they don’t have your back, then it’s not worth it.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Op Ed on 1/29/2025, 7:20 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

Ok - I need to chime in on the DAEP band removal thing. There are times that a child should not be removed from band due to a DAEP placement. It all goes back to the situation in which placement was made. Some DAEP placements are made and students "REFORM" The regret why they get the placement and adjust there behavior. I have experienced this first hand. Kids do STUPID THINGS - even our own children. Had my child been removed from band - lets just say things would be much different. Instead, 4 year All-State and soon headed to graduate school in performance. He still carries with him the strong regret on what he did to place himself into the situation. It did burn some bridges but we adapt. GOOD kids do STUPID things but it DOES NOT MAKE THEM BAD KIDS!! If they become bad for your class, that's one thing. Have GRACE and pray for them. Many of us could say we have done things in our lives that we gained grace for and may have even been lucky not to get caught. I have had things like this in the band handbook as well and with experience - TAKE IT OUT and don't back yourself into a corner you may regret.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by fumw on 1/29/2025, 4:21 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

I'm not a lawyer, and don't play one on the YB, but obviously neither is your principal. The concept of double jeopardy is that you cannot be charged and punished for a crime that you have already been cleared of, or that you have already been convicted of - not that you cannot have a series of consequences for an action.

Someone sent to jail may also lose their job. Custody of their kids. The right to vote or possess a firearm. Etc. A drunk driver may spend time in jail. Lose their license. Be ordered to pay restitution for an accident they caused. Have their insurance go up. The law do not say that you only get to have one consequence for your actions.

I'm betting that the suspension already has multiple consequences. In my school, a student cannot attend school events while on suspension (or in-school suspension).

Tell your principal that he or she is an idiot. If they try to do more than one thing to you, point it out as proof that they are an idiot.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by EtxFlute on 1/28/2025, 7:44 pm, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

Will this student even be back from the DAEP before school is basically over? You may not need to actually do anything. We had a senior once who was basically gone until the end of the school year because of admittance to DAEP. You could prohibit said student from participating in the spring concert or whatever else is going on simply due to the fact that so much rehearsal in preparation for X activity or concert. If admin is not supporting your decision there are other ways. If this kid is a complete behavioral problem for you as well you should be keeping a log of the indiscretions so that in injunction with the DEAP there is a trail of evidence to show that dismissal from band was in this kid’s future.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by older than dirt on 1/28/2025, 12:37 pm, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

I understand the concept that DAEP would result in removal, but from the other side, could membership in band help these problem students? My policy is that band participation in social events, and travel is eliminated by DAEP for the current school year, but their membership in band still exists. In other words, they come to band, but they do not get on the bus for anything or come to "parties". Next year, they return with a clean slate.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by WBB on 1/28/2025, 10:11 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

Did admin approve your band handbook at the beginning of the year? If not, then you have to follow what they say. If they did approve it as written, the argument can be made that it is not double jeopardy if the decision for removal and DAEP comes from admin and is given at the same time.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Question on 1/28/2025, 10:00 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

Did your administrater read and sign off on the handbook before it was printed and distributed?

If so, is it in writing?

Maybe for the future the handbook can have signatures of all directors AND the administer(s) signifying that they read and agree to the rules and regulations set.

Just a thought and suggestion.

Re: Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy

Posted by Beagle on 1/28/2025, 9:40 am, in reply to "Band Discipline vs. Double Jeopardy"

Double jeopardy applies to a court of law, not to school discipline.

You have spelled out consequences for not following band expectations in your handbook that the student and parent both signed and agreed to, and that your admin approved.

Follow the handbook.

That being said, where is the kid going to go? They can't get a schedule change at this point in the semester. They've already lost credit in both classes. Figure out this solution before you fight this battle.

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