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options for All Region

Posted by Anon on 11/30/2024, 5:21 pm

For a decade my kids have gotten creamed at Region auditions. As much as everyone says that's the way to make great players and thus a great band, that system fails us.

We are a solid 2A earning UIL 1st divisions on a regular basis but we have 2 (sometimes one) director going up against 3A's (or 4A's depending how a student is tracked) with 3 to 5 directors. We simply cannot compete. Time and again my best kids get destroyed, come home with their heads dropped and tails between their legs then they give up on the activity (sometimes quitting band entirely) despite my efforts "teach them through loss."

Don't read this as sour grapes with ugly tone, just a pragmatic, factual statement. I am done with All Region auditions. It is bad for our program.

What might be other options?

Re: options for All Region

Posted by a thought on 12/3/2024, 12:26 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

Your post covers what but not why. I had a relative who made first chair at region three years in a row and all three times she got pushed out at area by students she had surpassed at region. I don’t think she needed another lesson on her instrument. She needed help not getting psyched at area auditions. So I’m wondering what’s really going on with your students. Are they giving their best performance in the audition? My relative certainly wasn’t.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Mithrandir on 12/3/2024, 8:52 am, in reply to "options for All Region"

Have you (and/or region) explored adding another region band? And there are many different ways a second or third band can be seated. Bring it up at your region meeting. It could help in getting that patch.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Similar on 12/2/2024, 12:57 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

We are also at a huge disadvantage for All-Region. My students are very low-income, most of our region is very high-income. Most of the students in the All-Region band have taken a weekly private lesson since 6th grade. I've tried to start private lessons here, but I can't get enough paying kids to keep lesson teachers around. There are not enough hours in the day for me to provide that level of instruction.

Just about everything that you teach and kids learn from All-Region you can do with Solo and Ensemble. S&E lets you pick music suitable to your students' ability level and removes the head-to-head competition aspect. We assign solos right after UIL Marching and kids get to work. We dedicate some class time every week to solos from that point until the S&E contest in February. My students do very well at Region, most advance to State. They can be proud of their accomplishment, they "made State," and it's great PR for the band to list all of the kids who advanced. Some years it's tough to balance solo prep and UIL Concert prep. If UIL Concert is early then you have to start solos even earlier. We've consistently made Div I ratings at both marching and concert, and take busloads of kids to TSSEC every year.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Hmm on 12/3/2024, 6:42 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

I think I understand your approach, but your emphasis leans into demeaning the TSSEC placement. Feeling the need to say that students who qualify for TSSEC have made it to State, no quotations necessary.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by As long as... on 12/3/2024, 8:24 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

The students qualifying for TSSEC understand that the typical first division at the region level is a 3rd division rating at State, and their performance there has to be considerably better to medal.

There's been a lot of posts reflecting on how TSSEC can be demoralizing to students who otherwise finished strong that school year. A

And yes, the judging mentality runs the entire spectrum at State.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Similar on 12/3/2024, 10:57 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Agreed - they have to continue to work on their music through the spring if they want to be successful at State.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by older than dirt on 12/2/2024, 11:35 am, in reply to "options for All Region"

My gut reaction: Give them the opportunity. The students of which you speak are not understanding the level of expectations. In one school we had success, we had interested students stay for individual help. We had some give recordings for evaluation. I let the students work independently for 5 minutes each day. There isn't one answers for all, it works for each school depending on the community support. One thing, once you have one "break the ceiling", others will join.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by really retired again on 12/1/2024, 11:04 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

why even have auditions. Pick your best players and the other schools do the same - chair seating might be a challenge.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by really retired on 12/1/2024, 11:02 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

start your own - call it County etc. and only invite 1A & 2A. Do one of you have an auditorium? Have your conductor pick his music and audition on it. Or whatever....

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Centex on 12/2/2024, 1:10 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Some of the Region 8 smaller schools (1A-3A) have an organization called Centex Honor Band. Years ago when I taught in the region they had about 25-30 participating schools and had even introduced a MS track. At the time, it was a good stepping stone to get my kids involved in all-region. It is a lot more work but you might consider something like this with neighboring schools. Honestly if we had better facilities I would have started something like this with schools in our area, many of which do not participate in all-region or UIL contests.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by DesertJazz on 12/1/2024, 10:32 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

I hate to see anyone feel this way! I can understand where you’re coming from. I’m a big proponent of moving to 1A-3A being completely separate at this point, which would help you out some. In our region we have 4 bands now, with 2 1A-3A bands, and 2 4A bands. The color instruments are open tracked and striped through the bands. Given we’ve got around 800 students registered in the two classes we still see competitive groups, but 2A students aren’t completely blockaded. I would encourage you to talk about your frustrations with your region at the meetings, and maybe propose a solution such as this.

We also have a standing policy that we always place at least one student from each school in the bands so everyone is represented that participates.

I’m currently serving on the State SARC committee, and running for 3A rep. Feel free to contact me if I can help you in any way!

For the question you asked, see if any universities near you are hosting an honors band. FFA kids have a national band they can participate with. (Be warned I think it competes against a marching contest) A more out there idea would be to start your own for neighboring 2As?

Best wishes,

Steven Rash
stevenrash AT gmail.com

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Suggestions on 12/1/2024, 7:28 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

Have you considered .. teaching them the music through tutorials, sectionals, and the like?

I was a one-man-show 2A/3A school for a decade. I regularly put kids in the top half of their sections and had area qualifiers because I made it a point to the kids that they needed to work on the music. And not just color instruments - I qualified trumpets, horns, flutes, clarinets, saxes - all of it. Middle and high school both.

You're not competing with those 4A schools. There's an entire band track for 3A and down. Kids can advance even if they don't make Region.

It sounds like you're prioritizing marching band over region band. Find a way to do both. Practice the music earlier. You know what next year's music is RIGHT NOW. Hand out the packet before they leave for the summer.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by DesertJazz on 12/3/2024, 6:13 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

As much as I completely agree with the track 3A and down being a key part to the solution, there are some 3As out there that are coming in with 4A staff numbers. In the top 14 marching bands at our Area Marching Contest for 3A this year, 9 of them came down into our conference in the past 10 years. Nearly all of them are staffed at or above your average 4A level with 3-6 directors teaching in their programs.

If a 2A director (which they are) is on their own, what chance do they have against that in some regions? I get where they're coming from on that side. There's the 'be a better teacher argument' that yes, has some validity, but at the end of the day you only have so many hours in a day to do that teaching. Not to mention the smaller the school, the more activities that kid is probably involved in.

If a 2A band is going against 4A schools, plus the 3A schools, with a one-person show, I can see their frustration.

Remember when ATSSB was formed, the top number for old 3A (the largest of ATSSB) was 689. That number is now 1314 for the top and 544 for the top of 3A. 2A runs 105-253.

The frustration of directors in those original ATSSB schools led to the formation of ATSSB because TMEA didn't listen to the frustrations of directors like these. I think the OP probably has some valid concerns depending on how their region is set up. Long term I feel the best answer for ALL of our kids in the state would be to have a 1A/2A band, a 3A Band, 4A Band, plus the existing 5A/6A Bands that are in place. That's a serious issue of logistics with hotel space right now though that is a roadblock.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Respectfully on 12/3/2024, 10:43 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Classifications have changed as enrollments have grown as well. We don't need ATSSMRAUB (Small school rural and understaffed bands) just like we don't need a separate all-state band just for inner city kids and schools, which have the SAME STAFFING ISSUES and student commitment issues yet are forced to compete in the 5A/6A track most of the time. And no one speaks up for them at all at the state level. There is literally ZERO push for an All-State Show Band contest, for example.

I also firmly believe that out of our state's regions, a hundred 3A/4A/5A/6A all-region bands (first, second, and in some cases third+ bands) would outperform a 1A/2A all-state band. The ensemble isn't worth considering until the product it could create is comparable. It's about the kids - but if the kids aren't putting a quality performance together and having a positive experience, then it's not about the kids, it's about the ego of the director wanting to take "their kid to state."

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Hmm on 12/4/2024, 6:22 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Is there an active push for state show band track? I am to understand that the small school director community got together and formed ATSSB out of their interests and desires. If there is no push for a show band state track, then the show band directors don't know about it or don't desire it.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by DesertJazz on 12/4/2024, 10:20 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Who sets classifications? UIL. What is UIL primarily concerned with? Sports.

How many state champions do we now have for most sports? 2 per conference. Do you think that division 2 trophy for winning state gets looked at the way you're saying? No, they're going to have a parade and celebrate that win just as much!

I firmly believe we are our own worst enemy when we take the tact of your second paragraph. That belief that the kids won't put together a quality performance is the reason ATSSB was founded - TMEA made the same arguments at the time against a small school All-State band. Thank God for our students that those who founded our organization ignored these types of comments.

In the years since ATSSB was founded the programs and students across the state are better for it! That DOES make it about the kids! More kids get the opportunity to be members of an All-State band does not denigrate another All-Stater. The same way a 1A football champion is not taking away from a 6A football champion.

Coaches figured out how to garner support a long time ago. Too many of us in our profession are hung up on things about 'it won't be comparable.' I've seen what can come of things being built. Let's keep building, not just getting in our own way.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by old man on 12/13/2024, 5:41 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

I was around and well into teaching when we formed ATSSB. It was one all-state band made up of 1A-3A students. I predicted that one day we would be back again having the same argument among small school directors. I was dismissed and told that I'm a pessimist.

Welp, appears that I was right. And, I say that one day, the 1A bands will indeed, want a separate all state band. It will be shouted down by many, but one day decades from now, it will happen and will be more successful than the naysayers predict, just as the original ATSSB band was better than those naysayers predicted.

Even though it is UIL, the 1As have shown how they can step it up when it comes to the SMC. All they needed was a fair break and look at how many more 1As are now going to marching contest and how the level has risen. And, yes I do agree with your response. I was just throwing in my two cents.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by And.. on 12/4/2024, 7:25 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Aren't there only about 35 schools statewide that even have a band program at the 1A/2A levels?

Re: options for All Region

Posted by DesertJazz on 12/4/2024, 5:37 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

29 1As entered marching contest this year
165 2As entered marching contest this year.

I know several 2As near me who have band programs but do not enter marching contests.

Yes, the 1A most likely will never support it in the same way they don't have an Area round for marching contest. In my original answer, I think I mentioned a combined 1A/2A because of that.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Rodney Bennett on 12/4/2024, 1:00 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

You are speaking of 1A and 35 bands.

2A is a completely different classification with many more band programs.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by BDSO on 12/1/2024, 7:19 pm, in reply to "options for All Region"

I'm right with you. My 3C program has only two directors. Our students struggle to make it early in the morning to work on the music due to transportation issues and we can't do sectionals/lessons/etc. after school due to the same reason and athletics (most of our top band kids are in FB and VB). We go up against schools with 3+ directors (who also get daily help from the HS) and have private lesson programs. They take bus loads of students to participate and have double digit number of students who make it. Were are a solid sweepstakes band, but we've never had more than 2 students make it at the same time (most of the time it's none or one). We'd love to not participate but the head HS director feels region band is vital to the health of the program.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Anon on 12/4/2024, 4:41 pm, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

I agree with the other two comments. I'm a head director and I make myself available very nearly EVERY junior high rehearsal. I've been pulling kids out regularly. Today I ran the JH rehearsal so she could pull out the flutes (her instrument).

In your position, I would politely and professionally make my opinion known and insist they come work the region kids.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Question... on 12/2/2024, 8:41 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

Does the head director (and his assistants) go to your campus and help teach the audition music?

If not, then the it must not be "vital" enough for the health of the overall program.

I've been in a junior high program when the high school directors had similar expectations, but only darkened my door when I had a clinician rehearse my group before contest (an obvious PR stunt), and the last day of school to hand out next season's show music to my eighth graders.

The list of excuses why they "couldn't" visit more frequently is too long to list.

Re: options for All Region

Posted by Wait...What? on 12/2/2024, 6:41 am, in reply to "Re: options for All Region"

If he thinks it is that vital to the program, then he can find a way to get to your building and help you with that. Otherwise, tell him to kick rocks.

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