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Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Asst Band - Houston on 3/22/2023, 7:30 am

Hi there. I'm looking for lots of input, if possible, on this topic. As we have turned the corner and are entering the home stretch of the school year, one of the revisions I'd like to look into is my band program's leadership audition process. Over the years I've noticed a lot of really talented students who would naturally serve as a positive role model tend to shy away from wanting to apply for a leadership position, while sometimes the less than stellar role models arrogantly have the confidence to try to earn a leadership title...

I'd like to see the strong kids take more of an initiative in trying to go for these leadership roles. I recently started thinking about trying to implement a "points" system in order for students to be eligible to apply for leadership... This would be similar to the points system many districts use for students to be able to earn a letter jacket. The difference would be, the points would be necessary just to apply to be a leader, not necessarily to earn a leadership title.

So for instance, points would be awarded for items such as band placement, region/area/all-state honors, attendance at sectionals, etc.

Do any band programs already use a similar points system that allows students to even apply for a leadership role? I'm wondering if the application criteria would improve student accountablity throughout the year.

If not -- what has been your secret to success in ensuring the strongest candidates are seeking a student leadership role?

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by My opinion on 3/23/2023, 1:58 pm, in reply to "Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

I would be a little nervous to use a system like this, because like you said, there's TONS of kids that go through my program that would be incredible leaders if they could just open up and believe in themselves.

I try put the idea in their heads early on when they're freshman. I'll watch them to see potential future leaders and when I catch them doing something well, I'll throw in a "Wow, you'd make an amazing section leader/drum major some day".

There was one year that I had a particular flute player that I really wanted as my drum major, and she really wanted to be drum major, but just didn't know if she would be good enough. After talking about it with her a few times, she finally gave me a firm "no" and that was that... However, throughout the year, I guess she started to grow more confident and at the last minute, changed her mind and decided to try out. Best drum major I've ever had.

I worry that if I had a system like yours, she wouldn't have been trying to get "points" for the majority of the year and in the end, wouldn't have been qualified to audition.

Just something to think about.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Flip side question on 3/23/2023, 4:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

I appreciate your response a great deal. While I understand what you're saying... could you be more specific about the qualities that made her the best drum major you ever had? Was she a strong role model? Play her instrument well? Volunteer a lot? Have a positive attitude and good grades? Or other items. Also, did she always have the traits you liked the most out of all your drum majors, or did she only develop them after named to be a leader?

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Guy Number 2 on 3/23/2023, 12:08 pm, in reply to "Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

In addition to many of the things already mentioned, very little of selecting the leadership team should involve the audition process. By the end of marching season, you should be able to pick your leaders for next year. I have 90% confidence that I could post a list in December and have only 1 or 2 students/parents with concerns.

We do interest meetings, interviews, teaching modules, conducting auditions, etc., but that's merely to legitimize the posted results instead of actually helping us decide who will be a leader.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Anti-points on 3/23/2023, 11:34 am, in reply to "Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

I don't know that I like the points being purely on achievement. You may have good leaders that don't like the region process. You may have good leaders that aren't in the top band because it's incredibly competitive. You may have great leaders that are quality musicians but not jumping through hoops to earn points.

If you want certain kids to be leaders start teaching them to be leaders so that they don't shy away from it. Don't be afraid when it's time for applications to come in to suggest to a few students they should consider trying out. Never keep a freshman from going through the process just because they don't have "enough points". They go through the process as a sophomore and sure, they aren't going to be drum major or section leader.... that year. But they see the process and what you are looking for in leaders, (by the questions you ask during the process), and they develop. I had a number of students who tried out for drum major as a sophomore who became a drum major as a senior.

Never back yourself into a corner. What if you implement a system and end up with only a few applicants that you really don't want but are stuck with because you eliminated others from applying.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by HS Assist on 3/23/2023, 4:29 pm, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

Hi there,

I'm wondering if we are all sort of saying the same thing. It sounds to me like you're suggesting most students really don't have a chance to earn a leader position until after they've learned what it takes to be a leader, by going through the process once and probably not earning the title until their junior or senior year.

If I read that half of your response correctly, isn't that the same as saying "I want you to know what you need to be concerned about for next year"?, and if so... why not share those types of expectations at the beginning of a school year so students know what's clearly expected of them? And then see how man of the clearly defined objectives were met.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Kind of on 3/27/2023, 10:09 pm, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

A freshman is not ready to be a section leader or a drum major. They've never seen it and they have no idea what's involved. How do you lead a group of juniors or seniors with TONS more experience? It isn't about clearly stating the expectations. It's about the students have the maturity and responsibility to do the job and that takes more than knowing the expectations. We did usually put a freshman on the uniform crew so that they could learn. All of the freshman were loading crew on game days because they learned how to load a truck, (so that when they were going to contest in the Spring they knew how to load a truck).

Not all students are leaders. Not all leaders are good leaders. Not all band directors are good leaders or even know how to train leaders.

Sharing expectations is one thing. Having learned an 80 set show before trying to teach someone that has while you haven't is a very important skill.

Look at NFL coaches. They can coach fundamentals because they learned the fundamentals. Especially position coaches. Nobody is coaching a professional sport that hasn't played said sport. It's the same thing with our student leaders. They can't teach and coach what they've never done.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Suggestion on 3/28/2023, 11:32 am, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

Consider small school programs before you make blanket statements.

In many cases, students as young as *seventh grade* are in the marching band. A kid in 9th grade with two years marching experience is equal to a kid in 11th grade with the same. There's likely a huge difference in performance ability, true, but there's always a difference between small and large schools. That's why the PML exists.

And there are in fact MANY people that coach sports that never played that sport. Sonny Dykes comes to mind - he never played football, and his team just played for a national championship. Neither did (RIP) Mike Leach. Or Hugh Freeze at Auburn. For that matter, neither did Vince Lombardi, Bill Walsh, or Paul Brown, who are all very important names in the history of the NFL.

I've never performed on a bassoon. But I can teach it.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Leaderly on 3/22/2023, 4:53 pm, in reply to "Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

I understand your idea, but I think I would phrase it differently. Instead of gatekeeping the application, just make it part of the application process. Our application says something about we will consider grades, attendance, and effort when assigning leadership roles. We do not assign specific point values to any of those things.

Like Mr. Dude below, we started with the Scott Lang application document. I have modified it quite a bit over the years, but it's still an intense process. We do several sessions to teach the kids the skills they need and help them build their application package. Kids who aren't willing and able to do the application process also won't be willing or able to handle the responsibility of student leadership.

I also make it clear that playing ability is only one part of what we consider. We have several leadership roles that do not require the student to be good at their instrument. Some of my best "equipment manager" and "librarian" kids have been 4th band seniors who didn't know their left from right and could barely play a Bb scale, but were hard workers who wanted to do their part to help the band succeed. I've also seen kids really step up their game after taking on a leadership role, and suddenly they're practicing more and moving up.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Mr. Dude on 3/22/2023, 12:50 pm, in reply to "Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

We use Scott Lang’s Leadership application. Most half serious kids shy away from the steps, and the right kids thrive with the extra demand from the application.

From my experience, the best leader is not alway the most talented kid, though. I have and have had amazing leaders who never auditioned in the region/area process. I’ve had amazing musicians who were not great leaders.

Also, I start a conversation with kids that I think would be great leaders. Sometimes, those kids just need a little encouragement.

Also, my best drum major team was made of an all-state clarinet player that everyone knew was all-state clarinet, a flute player who never spoke in class, and a drummer class clown. They were fantastic together. They were the best teachers, and the best overall leaders.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Respectfully on 3/22/2023, 11:38 am, in reply to "Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

This is literally codifying playing favorites.

Allow everyone to audition for leadership positions, then you can at least say "they had an equal chance" when you pass them over for a kid you like better.

If you don't, you're not sending a very positive message to your kids. Trust me. Just leave it open.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Houston on 3/22/2023, 1:20 pm, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

I am actually ears wide open for this question -- can you clarify what you mean when you say this would not be received well? Is it mainly the idea of fairness from who's allowed to try out? Because if that's the case, the point of my question would be to introduce this new system at the beginning of a school year... at that point, all students would be given an equal chance to decide how invested they would be.

I'm assuming you allow any student to apply for any position, including drum major. How many students typically try out for your band's leadership positions and how many do you take on to your leadership team?

Would you mind sharing a few details about your program's leadership process and any particular details you think leads to its success, or any areas you may consider improving as well?

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by not Respecfully on 3/23/2023, 11:43 am, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

I allowed all students to try out for Section leader and Drum Major. We would recruit and appoint Historian, Uniform, and Library.

For some sections I might have 6 or 8 folks for a few spots. Other sections it might only be 1 or 2 folks because everyone knew they were going to get it, (and were the most qualified for it). Drum major was usually 10 to 15 kids.

Introducing a point system in August doesn't necessarily mean it's up to them to decide how invested they are. Life happens. Region auditions aren't for everyone and have NO bearing on how vested or qualified a person is to lead. Region placement is often a guess at best, especially in large sections like Flute/Clarinet/Trumpet where you could have over 100 kids auditioning and the judges often just fill in spots on their sheet for the kids outside the top 30 and not really rank the kids in true order.

Number of leaders was always fluid. It depended on the quality of applicants, the size of the section, and even the demands of the show. Normally I ran with 3 drum majors but one year I went with 2 because I only had 2 that needed to be up front and I needed the other applicants on the field playing. One year I went with 4 because I had a very qualified group and I needed a backfield conductor. Be flexible in your needs.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Respectfully on 3/22/2023, 8:18 pm, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

You can "make a policy change" like that all you want but it won't matter a hill of beans until the audition date, when you refuse to allow *that* kid to try out because they "don't have enough points" and their parent goes to the school board claiming unfairness - or worse.

I'm trying to save you that headache.

I allow anyone who wants to try out, and I require the student and their guardian to sign off on a form that is pretty clear that the leadership team is chosen *by me and my associate directors* with input from classroom teachers and administration. I check grades, attendance, and discipline records. I've never failed to have "enough" kids try out that my leadership positions were filled.

Of course, I don't do "section leaders" - sometimes you have a group of dormice masquerading as a clarinet section, and no one in that group can lead. And sometimes you have four or five really strong leaders in the saxophone section and it'd be unfair to just choose one. I have "squad leaders" that are each assigned a group of eight to ten students (or more, or less, depending upon enrollment, but ideally eight to ten) that they're responsible for teaching marching technique to.

As for playing and sectionals, with respect, I wouldn't trust even an All-State trumpet player to have the ability to diagnose pedagogical issues in a freshman for some reason struggling to play fourth line D. I use lesson teachers, my feeder middle school directors, band staff, and college techs to teach instrumental sectionals during summer band, and during the school year they're overseen by a staff member.

And no, I'm not a wealthy suburban program. I'm fairly urban, in fact. But I've built a consistent program of success here with these methods, and it's almost self-sustaining at this point.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Houston Respectfully on 3/23/2023, 8:00 am, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

To steal your line, I'm respectfully wondering if you could perhaps give a few more details. From your wording, it sounds like you might have about 10 leaders in your program and maybe 11 apply. I totally get that I might be reading your response wrong, which is why I was trying to get some numbers. Your strategy seems to work well for your program, which is fantastic! But I'm not sure if it will be able to transfer to mine without those details.

Also, what do you use your leaders for? Marching? Do they teach any kind of fundamentals at all? It sounds like you don't trust them musically... What is your criteria for choosing them?

Thanks again! I truly value your responses, I'm just trying to get an accurate picture of your method.

Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?

Posted by Leader uses on 3/23/2023, 11:50 am, in reply to "Re: Criteria for allowing students to audition for leadership?"

Not respectfully but a different bloke...

I used strong musicians to work individually with struggling players. I used student leaders for admin things like verifying uniforms, game day supplies, rehearsal attendance, etc. I used strong marchers to teach marching. Basically, I used the student leaders where their strengths were.

My staff and I had degrees. We did the teaching. The leadership was to fill in gaps and provide more individualized instruction. Primarily, they assisted with marching fundamentals and to a limited degree, helping kids get to their spots but that was more the drum majors than the section leaders. I also trusted them, in most cases, to work sectionals and stand tunes but before every breakout session they were given a very specific list of targets to focus on in the sectional.

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