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Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Chris P. Bacon on 2/28/2023, 10:24 pm

Hi all,

Brass player here. I'm playing a challenging UIL march that has fast 16th note runs at the end (His Honor). I have more than half my WW kids progressing well, but a handful that just don't grasp the concept of playing 16th note runs.

I've had them tongue the notes,then slur, start slow and speed up; but no luck. Is there anything else that I can try to help these kiddos? Tricks of the trade?

Thank you in advance.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Jason Bird on 3/7/2023, 6:15 pm, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

I turn on the metronome with 16ths at a slow tempo. I have the students "finger and click with the met." The goal is to align the instrument's click with the met.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by WTX Retiree on 3/5/2023, 8:48 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

This tip was given to me by an outstanding flute private teacher. Works for brass and wws:

Step 1-Begin with first group of 4 sixteenth notes and include the 5th note in the run. Play long, short, long, short, long slowly and accurately.

Step 2-gradually increase speed repeating the same 5 long short long short long.

Step 3-Using same 5 notes, play them short, long, short, long, short. Repeat step 2 gradually increasing speed.

Step 4-play the 5 notes as written slowly and gradually increase speed.

Step 5-Focus on notes 5-9 and repeat steps 1-4.

If you have 8 sixteenths:

Step 6-play notes 1-9 ala step 1 and 2.

Step 7-play notes 1-9 ala step 3 and 4.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Chris P. Bacon on 3/5/2023, 1:39 pm, in reply to "Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Amazing responses! Thank you!!!!

#bandlife

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by 4 Real on 3/2/2023, 11:01 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

You can do whatever you want with a march in regards to rescoring.

If it's a major rescore (like no brass/perc until letter X), you should indicate this in the scores for the judges.

If it's a minor rescore like omitting WW players that can't play a few measure or a section, just have them not play. You could also give them an easier part in the score like a brass instrument part for that section.

What matters the most is that you are having the kids execute the parts with as much musical & technical perfection as possible.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by jt3 on 3/1/2023, 9:47 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Have them play it slowly on many different rhythms, like Scottish Snap, swung, eighth quarter eighth. Have them do this forwards and backwards, starting in different places in the measure. Vary up the spots that they would slur and tongue.

If all else fails, modify the part if needed for those that continue to have difficulties.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by If all else fails... on 3/1/2023, 7:39 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Have them "Bop" the downbeats. Maybe some students play the first and third sixteenth notes (down-up eighth notes).

Tell them they are providing a valuable service of helping the sixteenth note players stay on track.

You could also have the entire section(s) do this and add one student at a time with the printed sixteenth note runs. This exercise will clearly demonstrate who can adequately play the runs, and who are contributing "vagueness" to the line. This might work best in sectionals since it could take more time out of your full ensemble rehearsal.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by D Brown on 3/1/2023, 7:05 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Swing every pair of sixteenths

Scottish Snap each pair (sixteenth-dotted eighth)

Play the first of each grouping of sixteenths longer, then the next time the second of each group, then the third, then the fourth

Have the metronome slow enough and on a sixteenth note click that the kids can be successful (perhaps with some redirection on even fingers/fingering patters) and slowly speed up from there (when playing the pattern straight)

If all else fails modify parts after pre-UIL with the offer to add kiddos back in if they are able to learn the technique

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by KB on 3/1/2023, 9:03 am, in reply to "Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Agree with the swing and Scottish snap method.

Play it backwards, extend the scale in either direction--do anything you can to get them thinking or engaged on a deeper level. Count-tap-clap, say the notes, whatever you can think of. Do 1/4 time, 1/2 time, single time, etc. The human brain likes something about those divisions/multiples of the tempo.

If there are others in your band that have trouble with 16ths, do some sort of 2-minute rhythm or subdivision drill everyday. Maybe it's a more widespread problem?? You know them best.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Elroy on 3/1/2023, 6:49 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Have them say a four syllable word. Example
Mississippi.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Me on 3/1/2023, 6:48 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

How do you eat an elephant? The answer is simple: one bite at a time.

It may be that the success of some of your students is having is leading you to believe that all of your students should be having that success. If that’s true, you wouldn’t need to have a chair test, because every single kid could play every single part. This march May be more difficult than your lowest chairs can play.

If you still want them to master the part, you need to make sure that you skill and drill every single day, for about 10 minutes at a time. Don’t just play the entire section, but make sure you break it up into one, two, four, and then finally eight measure chunks. Have the students learn to eat smaller bites of this elephant rather than try to bite down on the entire thing at once.

Finally, it’s not out of the realm of possibility that you may simply have to simplify or cut people out of the part. Sometimes not everyone can play it and they simply muddy the waters, and you need to cut off a person here or a person there.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by DesertJazz on 3/1/2023, 5:49 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

If they aren't getting it, but you have some who are, have them play the alternating notes to where they're only responsible for the eighth notes. (Have to have at least a few kids who are getting it!) Also you could have a percussionist play the part on a xylophone, they tend to count better and line things up. Can be a good way to clean it up too.

Good luck!

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Mr. Orange on 3/1/2023, 1:39 am, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Add one note at a time.

Chunk it. Play 5 notes at a time, a beat of rest then 5 notes at a time. Ex. 1e+a2 (rest) 2e+a3 (rest) 3e+a4 (rest) 4e+a1. Then 9 notes at a time 1e+a 2e+a3; 2e+a 3e+a 4; 3e+a 4e+a 1.

Play in different rhythms. Dotted 8-16th is common. Pair with the opposite rhythm: 16th-Dotted 8th. The overall tempo is slower but the quick movement on the 16th note is the same as actual tempo. More advanced rhythms would be groups of 3 (8th-16th-16th in different permutations) and 8th - 16th triplets (good for just trying to get their fingers to move faster).

In my own practicing, I start slow and set my metronome app (Tempo! by Frozen Ape) to increase by 1 BPM every X number of bars. You can end up going from an 8th note feel to a 16th note feel without realizing it. But that's not really a feasible method for group instruction, just individual practice.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Oboe on 2/28/2023, 11:10 pm, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Beat to beat:
1e+a2
2e+a3
Etc.
You do want to include that next beat to lock things in rhythmically and make sure fingerings are right (if you stop before the beat and miss that connection, they don't always realize when they need an alternate).

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Dotted rhythms, usually at a slower tempo:
Long short long short (basically turn the first and third 16ths into dotted sixteenths and the second and fourth into 32nds)
Short long short long (the same thing but opposite) (they will struggle to keep the short notes on the beat without pushing them ahead; watch that).

It's important to do it both ways, which makes them practice each connection very quickly but with time between to make sure it was right, and ensures they can control timing of fingers in general

You can also do fancier dotted rhythms if the basics aren't working:
Long short short short
short Long short short
short short Long short
short short short Long.

In any case, sometimes it's good to do the first variation one last time before you play it straight again, as that's usually closer to the feel.

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Note groupings.
Like musical words, note groupings can give players small reasonable chunks to keep track of in a run. NEVER group after the last sixteenth of a beat unless the music is really demanding it (very rare). Note jumps and articulations can guide note groupings, but if nothing stands out to you, grouping before the second 16th (e+a1) (e+a2) tends to work well.

If you've got groupings planned, you can practice one note grouping at a time, then the whole thing with pauses between groupings (like pausing between words for young readers), then with no pauses at all.

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Identify scales, arpeggios, scales in thirds. Mark them. Practice those patterns separately, then in the music.

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Make sure players have marked alternate fingerings (left F, forked F, left Eb, etc.), and done so efficiently (one letter or symbol, not multiple words) throughout the piece.

Re: Woodwind 16th note runs help

Posted by Try this on 2/28/2023, 11:03 pm, in reply to "Woodwind 16th note runs help"

Brass player here too. Some woodwind friends taught me to try “uneven rhythms” to practice runs. Long short long short etc. Think swing. You can also do the opposite (short long short long).

Just another way to get the notes under their fingers.

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