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School Vouchers

Posted by Small School Director on 2/17/2023, 8:10 am

So the Governor is really pushing school vouchers. Anyone concerned how this will impact smaller rural schools and their program?

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Look North on 3/8/2023, 10:08 am, in reply to "School Vouchers"

If you really want to see that damage this "School Voucher" nonsense does to ALL public schools, just look north to Oklahoma. They have been on this kick for quite a few years now. It strips money away from public ed, generally funnels it to schools that have ties to re-electing those who push for it, and positively impacts far fewer students than what they claim. Anyone crazy enough to remain teaching in Oklahoma probably has family ties that keep them from leaving or they are so poor already that they can't afford to get out. I know because I got out, yet still maintain connections there that help me stay informed.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Thunder on 2/21/2023, 3:04 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

Smaller schools in mostly rural settings will not see too much from this.

Smaller schools on the outskirts of larger schools will see the effect.

My opinion is its a travesty to tie a kid to a school because of their zip code. The argument of "Well Texas schools already allow transfers from out of district" is a moot point because most schools don't accept kids from out of district, and in many cases schools will charge a tuition for "out of district" placements. And don't say it doesn't happen because I live 5 miles from a school that does this and is considered to be the best "small" school in the area. But they are *very* small.

With that said, I'd wish we could go to more of a European or Japanese style where after 8th grade kids are sent on either a technical school or college prep route. In Japan you're tested and sent on your track without a choice.

I'd like to see it be a tested placement, with the option to go on the college prep route if you so choose but you must maintain good grades and attendance.

At the end of a technical school you graduate with the certifications you need to begin a career in a skilled trade (think electrician, HVAC, plumber, etc) whereas college prep actually gets you ready for college.

All of this to say the following: When the parent is given the choice as to where to send their kid and the money travels with that kid, schools are going to be forced to do better. This won't affect most small schools because for the most part they are doing okay. It will, however, force some of the larger, under performing schools, to change the way they do things or else face massive budget shortfalls and takeover by the state.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by SOS on 2/21/2023, 1:11 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

It’s just another corollary to a current American ethos: I want my child to have the education I desire, but I don’t care if your child gets the education you desire.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by And... on 2/21/2023, 8:03 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

...what's the problem with that? They are your children, and it is up to YOU, not anyone else, to make sure that they get what you believe is the best education possible for them.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by SOS on 2/22/2023, 9:29 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Straw man and false dilemma. I never said that the parent shouldn’t be the primary advocate for their child’s education. It is possible to care about the education of one’s own child and also care about the education of other children in our society.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by HCBD on 2/18/2023, 10:31 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

Firmly believe this is all part of the idea that public schools are failing us and the government wants to blame it on the actual school districts.

The rich kids already go to private schools, this will make the slightly less rich kids also go private. Thus leaving the at risk student population to be an even higher portion of the public school population.

This will make scores shoot even lower, and stats and ratings will drop even more, and the government can tout that schools are failing.

End Game? - Privatize education and the DeVry and University of Phoenix(s) of the world will take over education and investors can now profit off education and the rich go to good schools (because they can afford them) and get richer off the poor schools.

There are of course some exceptions, but I believe that this is broadly the plan.

These schools do not have to answer to TEA, do not have to follow their stupid rules, stupid testing plan, and ridiculous standards. This is the model followed by privatizing prisons through the years.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Agreed on 2/21/2023, 11:28 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

At zero times in human history when something was de-funded or de-regulated did the cost of it or alternate services go *down*.

If you take $5,000 out of a household's tax rolls for a voucher, the cost of the nearby private schools *will* climb $5,000 within a month or two.

And I don't know any private schools whose annual tuition is less than about $12,000. If a family already doesn't have a thousand+ bucks a month to spend on school, giving them three or four hundred isn't going to make up the difference.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by My opinion on 2/17/2023, 1:31 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

I know the gov. is not concerned. But seriously, I wonder how much it will actually affect rural schools. I worked in a rural for only one year and there was not much else around. Are there many other options in your vicinity that parents would even be willing to choose, let alone travel to? Regardless, I don't like where this is headed.
I'll stop there, because I don't want to get into the political fight that is sure to erupt on here.

Good luck.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Mr. Dude on 2/17/2023, 3:44 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

So it's not that more kids would choose the local religious school necessarily, it's that so much funding per kid who is already at the private school would leave the public school funding. Also, home schooling is as regular in rural schools as it is in other areas. So without losing any kids, their funding would drop.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by me on 2/17/2023, 1:15 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

I think small schools will actually fare better than big schools as most of our students have no other choices close by for their education. That being said, vouchers are a dumb and self serving ideas being forced upon us by the aristocrats. I am a little concerned about their not being enough tax base for public education because of all the money that will go to these crazy things.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Peaches on 2/17/2023, 12:46 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

No. Not concerned in the least. I think it’s a good thing.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Agreed on 2/17/2023, 4:07 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

The schools that are not serving their community will figure out pretty quickly they need to change. The unfortunate thing is it may be painful for a bit for those that can't leave. And at the same time, some of those parents couldn't care less and want a failing school. If you don't believe me go back and look for the coverage when HISD tried to close some of the failing and understaffed schools and the parents lost their ever-loving minds.

Rural schools may fair better when parents WANT to send their kids their instead of some of the current disasters. And they have fewer choices.

Good suburban schools will fair fine because people want to go there.

Those with lots of Charter options in less quality schools will suffer because parents will jump next door to that Charter.

The rich aren't really getting richer (to the other poster) because the voucher only offsets what would have been paid to the public school. So because someone gets a 5k voucher doesn't mean they can suddenly afford a 20k private school bill AND provide transportation. Working parents use school buses, (I know my spouse and I did), and couldn't have flexed a schedule around pick up and drop off at a private school.

I think this will provide some of the kids in the most dangerous environments a chance to get an education. not perfect but I gotta tell ya, the schools right now are a mess in a lot of places and I'm tired of paying for said mess with a HUGE tax bill.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Exercise on 2/20/2023, 10:48 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

This is a tax break for the rich.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Sign me up on 2/21/2023, 10:05 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Tell me how I get a tax break with a voucher?

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Me on 2/24/2023, 6:54 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

So it goes like this:

1) Parents get a voucher they can use for private schools.
2) Lower/middle class parents look at the cost of private schools and realize they still can't afford it.
3) Rich parents who were afraid of the "diversity" of inner city schools and were ALREADY willing to pay for private schools make use of the voucher thus reducing the personal cost to them of avoiding public schools.

The taxes I pay to my local school are not for the benefit of my child, they are to help educate the populace. My neighborhood is safer because of public education.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Exercise on 2/28/2023, 4:16 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

You're correct. I didn't bother to respond to the user above as they were clearly being obtuse.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Bad idea on 2/18/2023, 12:06 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

One really needs to think this through and understand what the probable end game is. That is likely the complete dismantling of the public school system, or the hollowing out of the public school system as it was done in Louisiana. Will vouchers effect small schools? Probably. While many small towns do not have alternatives to their public schools, once “government money” shows up, it is almost assured enterprising folks, or so called educational corporations will show up.

The real difficulty with vouchers is they strip away money and wealthier students from schools. The reality is a voucher does not do much for a family without the means to pay for tuition and fees private schools charge. With the exception of religious schools, which seem to have ,ore modest tutition and fees, cost for private schools are 2 to 4 times the amount of the propose voucher.

As for the success, or non success of a school, it is About clientele, clientele, clientele.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by But on 2/21/2023, 10:04 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Schools are funded by a much larger base than actually attends the campus. All those childless homes are still paying for those schools. I write an almost 10k check to the ISD my home is zoned to and I haven't had a kid in school for years. At one time, I was against vouchers but I am no longer against them. My child went to public school. Got a great education. Had I had a voucher option when they were in school I would not have used it because the school system was doing what it needed to providing them a quality, rigorous education that prepared them for the next level.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Concur... on 2/17/2023, 6:26 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

In addition to the HISD stuff, there were radio & TV ads that were telling people that if those changes ever came to fruition, the district would end up like another large district that wasn't that far away: Under TEA governance.

Problem was...the other district started showing signs of some improvement.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by fumw on 2/17/2023, 5:47 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Was about to reference the same thing. HISD schools at 1/3rd capacity because they have been abject failures so long but stay open due to the 'community' and people like the worst boss in congress scream about how it is important for the community that these schools remain open. Meanwhile the charter and private systems build bigger and bigger campuses (Harmony, KIPP).

Are vouchers the solution - I don't know. But what we are doing has some major problems. My question about the voucher concept has always been, can the receiving school say, No?

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by "Capacity" on 2/21/2023, 11:44 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Careful with this idea of "capacity" in schools. I'll use Dallas and Arlington ISDs as examples here, using publicly accessible data.

Dallas ISD has several high schools that were *large* 5A schools back when 5A was the largest classification - that are now 4A schools, and on the smaller side of 4A or smaller at that (Adamson, North Dallas, Roosevelt, for example). Many of those schools had enrollments double what their current buildings have.

Continuing with DISD as an example, in 1968, the district had about 160,000 students. By 1978 that number had dropped to 132,000 students. But in 2000, it was up to 161,000. Enrollment in inner city schools is cyclical - as families move out and neighborhoods gentrify, enrollment goes down. As young childless people move out of gentrified neighborhoods and as they age, the enrollment goes back up.

For every DISD school that's "under capacity" there are two or three that are literally bursting at the seams. Skyline HS is one of the fifteen largest HS by enrollment in Texas, and it's literally ten miles from Roosevelt HS, the smallest school in the district with a sixth its enrollment - over 4200 kids compared to about 700.

Arlington is similar. There are four high schools in AISD that in recent years have used portables due to overcrowding (Sam Houston, Martin, Arlington, and Lamar) yet there are two schools in the district that are at 2/3 capacity (Bowie and Seguin). You can't just redraw the attendance lines annually to make sure the population balances. Plus, there's frequently a HUGE variance between grade levels.

If you close those "under capacity" schools in Houston you could be talking about kids riding a bus for up to an hour to go to school. Parents are right to not want that for their kids.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Houston on 2/21/2023, 10:00 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Do those schools have an open attendance policy meaning if you live in the district you can enroll your child in any building within the district as long as you can provide transportation? Is it possible something better is happening at Skyline so all the parents want their kids there compared to Roosevelt where apparently parents don't want their kids? 10 miles is plenty to "redraw" the lines to balance the attendance without causing an hour bus ride.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by "Capacity" on 2/22/2023, 11:36 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Open attendance means nothing if you don't have transportation.

Again, it's about economics. Not every parent that sends their kids to school has the money to pay for their kid to travel across town to go to a different one. Many will attend the closest school because they literally can't afford to send them anywhere else.

There's a lot more to consider when drawing attendance lines than simple numbers. What about locations of housing projects and/or assistance housing? Racial and ethnic makeup?

And regarding Skyline - kids go to Skyline because kids go to Skyline. Every school in both AISD and DISD are "choice" schools and kids can choose which school to attend. Kids that think they're going to be athletes go to Skyline because it achieves notoriety due to its school size and usual athletic success - much more so than many other DISD schools.

There are also what are basically magnet programs at virtually every comprehensive high school in DISD. Their effect on enrollment campus to campus is virtually nil - if every school admits 100-150 freshmen into their magnet programs, they all still wind up with the same amount of freshmen.

Finally, regarding the hour bus ride - part of what happened in Houston was that a school designated for closure would have sent kids to the next closest school on a map, but that school was over capacity - so they had to go to the next closest school in the *other* direction, which would have forced kids to cross a major highway intersection if they walked to school. Since that wasn't feasible, they would have had to be bused, and the buses pick up an hour or more earlier than the kids would have had to leave school to walk to the original campus.

It's never as simple as lines on a map. This is why school boards hire people to do this research for them.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Sterling Archer on 2/20/2023, 2:37 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

In other states with this legislation, private schools have to admit students, but they don't have to retain them... meaning they can cater their policies to the students they wish to retain on their campus and kick out whomever they don't want.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Small School Director on 2/18/2023, 8:35 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Not sure on the public school, but the private schools can absolutely say no. They also can kick them out for whatever reason.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by FYI on 2/19/2023, 5:23 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Public schools may not refuse to admit anyone living within their attendance zone.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Sigh on 2/17/2023, 5:25 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Charter schools are public schools, and don’t charge tuition.

Parents that want to jump already can.

And unless you LIVE where those schools are a mess, YOU ARE NOT PAYING FOR IT. School funding is largely local.

Stop drinking the kool-aid! This is 100% about saving money for rich folks.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by So on 2/21/2023, 9:56 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

So if I'm locally paying for schools that are fine then I'm probably not looking to go elsewhere for my child's education and not complaining about my tax bill. If I am in a location where the school is a mess and I'm paying for said mess but want a better option for my child doesn't it seem fair that I don't have to pay for the mess I don't want my child in and can use my taxes for a situation that will better serve them INSTEAD of having to pay for the mess I don't want to send my kid to AND the place I do? Seems to me if it's a local issue then let the local money go where it wants. For those that don't have kids in school it's a non-issue because I can't walk my tax dollars unless my child goes somewhere else. So I am paying taxes for the next 50 years to a school my child won't attend..... But you think that moving my taxes for 12 years is a deal breaker? Come on with the Kool-Aid

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Snerk on 2/22/2023, 11:39 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

You could always show up and vote, and make changes to the school board that allows these "schools you don't want your kids to go to" to exist.

Just saying.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Well.... on 2/22/2023, 10:44 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Ask the many voters in the HISD area how that worked for them. Multiple people from that district have been arrested and jailed and some of them at the federal level for bribery and kickbacks. While the schools failed folks got rich. But sure, just show up and vote while the board members get in physical fights during the meetings. Too easy of an answer without an actual solution.... And we've already established that these folks wanted their failing schools to stay open so what change were they going to vote for? Meanwhile, kids are lost and failed by those that should have been protecting them.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Correct, BUT on 2/17/2023, 9:32 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Charters can shut down if/when they want, public schools cannot.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Um.. on 2/18/2023, 6:29 am, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Has nothing to do with previous post. So what?

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by 3Aer on 2/17/2023, 12:35 pm, in reply to "School Vouchers"

If you're actually rural I think you have less to worry about than those who are in the cities. Not as many options out in the boonies as there are in cities.

It's all BS in my opinion, not going to really help a kid who isn't rich to pay those tuition fees much. Which means only the richer kids will still be doing this. The only real outcome is making it harder to educate EVERYONE which is what America's system was setup as.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Me on 2/17/2023, 11:28 am, in reply to "School Vouchers"

It won't impact rural schools hardly a single bit. You can't use a voucher to pay for private schooling if there's no school to send the voucher to. Rural schools don't have dozens of local private schools to send kids to.

Vouchers will hurt the suburbs and the inner city the most.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by SOS on 2/21/2023, 3:16 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

If the money becomes available, new schools will be created to soak the money up.

Re: School Vouchers

Posted by Respectfully on 2/21/2023, 9:29 pm, in reply to "Re: School Vouchers"

Please explain how a rural school district whose total population is less than 400 people will have a private school option created locally to “soak that money up.”

And explain how the ten or so students that go to attend that school will pay enough in tuition to pay for anything approaching a legitimate education.

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