The Yellow Board

AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Educational Value on 10/31/2022, 9:40 pm

After going to area, I had to ask myself. What is the educational value of an Area or State?

I do not see any value. It is 5 individuals who judge your bands on what they feel is educational or the standard.

Therefore, it is not educational because they do not see what you had to do to get to that point and/or how many years it took to build.

There is nothing educational for bands to attend AREA or STATE.

THE BAND WORLD HAS LOST ITS VALUE FOR EDUCATION.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Lunney on 11/5/2022, 7:25 pm, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

I viewed our daily work and our region (meeting a standard) as educational. I never considered Area and State to be educational. It’s simply a competition to rank against other groups. We were as high as bronze medalist and as low as last place at State. First in area two times and also came in 12 out of 14 bands at area.
My point is…..don’t waste a thought in trying to rationalize it as educational. It’s simply what happens when you bring music down to the level of athletics.
I enjoyed the competition, but never thought of the competition as being educational.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Philosophy on 11/4/2022, 11:57 am, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

Here is a question - does Area or state really make bands as a whole better in the state of Texas?

Athletics have 1 purpose - to win. We can say teamwork and all that but it's really bs. The purpose of playing a football game is to win. Not pad stats and not get better but to win. There is a winner or a loser. As an athlete I understand this. I tell myself a lot analyzing an event how this or that got better which helps to win but at the end of the day, nobody cares how much improved the 4th place team at state is. It matters who won the last game of the season. Period.

Is area and state really making music programs healthier or is it hurting? We learn a lot being in an ensemble and truth be told, 99% of those in a high school marching band will never set foot on a football field after high school. (same is probably true for the football players as well). They aren't using lessons learned from going to state marching band in their every day boardroom, zoom call, or living room.

So, while Marching Band can serve a number of purposes I think the whole push to Area and State is actually less beneficial. Think of the time especially and money in some programs that could be put to other purposes, (like taking kids to see the Symphony and the ballet and music theater) instead of buying one more clinician or one more marching tech for a few more weeks to move from 25th to 23rd at state.... Imagine if the Nutcracker could do 3 matinee performances and fill the auditorium with high school students from the Greater Houston area. Imagine if every Broadway series event (that would be about 6 different shows a school year) at the Hobby Center could have 1 Wednesday morning performance with the understudies with a full auditorium of middle school and high school students seeing the performance and then maybe even a panel discussion from the performers on what it took to get there, (hint, it wasn't state marching band).

We want to know why music programs aren't supported? We have politicians and admin that don't support the activity because they were never exposed to the better sides of it. We have a symphony not supported in San Antonio because adults were never exposed to it as kids. Keep the arts alive by taking the competition away from it. Art was never about competition. It should always be about quality.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by band on 11/2/2022, 9:25 am, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

It seems to me like, assuming the quality of the teaching and student performance is at a high level for every band at the contest, which typically is for the "finals" round for many Area contests in the state, the groups that advance to State always have the better, more polished design.

Just an observation. Don't know really how this plays into educational value though I do think it's important to give kids a product that plays to their strengths (just like programming music in the spring can ultimately determine your group's success level).

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by TYB host - please read on 11/1/2022, 6:19 pm, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"
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Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Nick on 11/1/2022, 1:12 pm, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

I understand your frustration, I've been there. I would say there's ton of educational gains from the UIL marching process. Learning how to win and lose with respect is a valuable educational experience. Being part of a team is educational. Heck, listening to critiques and making adjustments to become better musicians and marchers is educational. It's like anything. It's how you approach it that ultimately makes it valuable or not. Being on the side of having groups be successful now in the process I see the really good sides of it. Having been on the other side of not doing well I understand the frustration. UIL is continually looking at modernizing the process to ultimately make itself more like a BOA or USSBA situation. It's looking to be as educationally significant as possible. I applaud the UIL office for continuously attempting to provide some of the best foundations for music education in the entire world.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by except on 11/1/2022, 5:58 pm, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

UIL is not BOA or USSBA. Some bands just want an avenue like the one that served us for years. For those who want BOA or USSBA, it's there for them. Trying to make UIL be the same is akin to having everyone drive a Ford F 150 when some may want a Chevy or Toyota.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Yes... on 11/1/2022, 3:22 pm, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by old on 11/1/2022, 8:16 am, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

I see no educational value in Area or State. Band has become like athletics. But then, I'm a dinosaur.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Old #2 on 11/1/2022, 11:31 am, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

The old guys back in the early 80’s predicted this. They really weren’t old 45 to 50’s. The football coaches that ran UIL couldn’t understand how so many bands could receive a superior rating. There had to be a “ best band “ out there and they set out to determine who that was in every class.
Just saying, I was practically a newbie back then but the times they change. I listened and learned.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by reality check on 11/1/2022, 7:47 am, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

If your reasoning starts and stops at "It is 5 individuals who judge your bands on what they feel is educational or the standard", then I have to ask....what makes Region so educational then?

72% of Texas HS marching bands received a 1st division this year at Region marching. Almost 3/4 of them. There are so many people in this state who equate "1st division" with "1st place" that they have no frame of reference whatsoever when the trophy mill mentality is finally set aside at the Area level and people start taking you more seriously. On that merit, Area/State are truly a much *more* educational experience because they serve as a reality check on how real life actually works.

My guess is you teach at a school that has only recently pawed and clawed its way towards getting a first division at Region Marching, or has had some years of 2s and some years of 1s. So this year you got a 1. This achievement was met with tremendous fanfare at your campus...only to find yourselves getting slaughtered at the Area contest the following week. Which is to be expected. Schools that barely qualified for Area usually end up in the bottom half.

So instead of coming to terms with reality and figuring out how to adjust course to improve, you've resorted to criticizing the system instead. "They need to understand our journey to give us the reward we deserve!".

But society does not care about your journey. It only cares if you can impress it. That you're worth its time. NASA doesn't care that you took kids who could only add and subtract and through storm and snow managed to teach them long division. They're still going to hire the kids who can do Integral Calculus over yours.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Rubric on 11/4/2022, 11:41 am, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

Region is against a standard.

Area/State are against someone else therefore, region provides the snapshot of where you are against the rubric meanwhile Area/State or based on the preferences of the judges compared to the other ensembles.

I don't like the new trend therefore, as a judge I will naturally be prejudiced towards the more traditional shows versus the new shows with hits every 20 seconds, no melodic lines, or run to a blob, yell through your instrument and then run to your next blob/hit point. See how that works. But if I have to judge against a rubric which is feet in time, uniform styles, sound quality, intonation, etc. I take the bias out and now we can actually see if we are a 1, 2, 3, etc. level band.

At state everyone can march. The question is who paid the most. Region, money doesn't matter as long as you look the same and sound like a band.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Yes, but... on 11/2/2022, 5:18 pm, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

About 70% of the bands were not subjected to our judging panel. Believe me, it matters.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by creative person on 11/2/2022, 2:28 pm, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

That’s not how it has worked for a long time. Example: The word creative was invented to describe people like Leonardo da Vinci, Beethoven and Mozart. That’s not how the word is used anymore. Every piece of crayon art stuck to the refrigerator with magnets is now creative. In a democracy everyone is entitled to be creative. Everyone is entitled to succeed.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by Reality is Tough on 11/2/2022, 7:27 pm, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

We may ALL be creative but that doesn't insure that we will be successful. A famous band clinician once said "not all notes are created equal. Music is not a democracy and some notes must stand out against others." I think the same is true of band competitions whether they are considered educational or not. Competitions are not a democracy. We learn from our wins and losses. Now that's educational!

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by try again on 11/1/2022, 6:07 pm, in reply to "Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

You're making a lot of assumptions about this poster that you can't prove with hard factual evidence. You don't know anything about that person's program, how many times they've been to Area, etc. Here's something that I will tell you that is factual. Once upon a time, I did take over a program where they never made a 1 at Region Marching Contest. Well, we went on to make a 1 and to advance to Area in a competitive Area. We wound up being the alternate band to state, not ranking at the bottom as you seem to think new advancing bands do. The band that placed ahead of us only did so by 4 points. We did advance the next time around and we made the finals in their first appearance at state. There are other things about your response that make me sad and I truly hope that you are different in your approach with your students, parents and colleagues at your school. Best wishes.

Re: AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value

Posted by How about no on 10/31/2022, 10:38 pm, in reply to "AREA & STATE vs. Educational Value"

The snap shot provides insight into the workings of a teacher and program. Multiple years of data can show trends. The trend I see is that bands and directors put in the work over a long period of time and the evidence lies in the region, area, and state contests.

Additionally, the contests are an absolute clinic for competitively challenged directors like myself. Performing is one aspect, observing is another. The area and state contests feature groups who have figured out how to win judge points. The hospitality spread may sound good, but I prefer to let the best bands around teach me how to be better. Through participating in the event as a spectator, it becomes an educational experience.

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