The Yellow Board

Changes

Posted by MS on 5/24/2022, 7:26 am

With the number of directors who are leaving the profession and young directors who leave after only a few years, is it time we change?

What are the root causes and can we do something to help alleviate that?

Are we too competition focused?

I know some people say if you don't want to focus on competition than don't, but it's not that simple when admin says they also want that because they see it happening down the street.

Do we not advocate enough for work/life balance?

I've seen plenty of head directors demand their assistants stay because they are still working. The assistants feel trapped. Or staying late on a Friday night because we need to update the music library.

Do we allow the few to make decisions for the majority?

Not everyone has the same resources and it seems the same directors make the decisions based on their needs and programs and everyone goes with it because they are successful so they must know what they are doing. But it doesn't always work for everyone and people don't get a chance to be heard. There are directors out there who get their way at region meetings.

Do we get enough support from FAD's and campus admin or just demands on our time and energy?

I get it, it's a job and we have bosses but at what point can we say "that's not possible" without getting reprimanded. At what point is it ok to say, please give me more notice or time to work on that. Last minute emails demanding things by the end of the day isn't possible when you have a full class load.

I may just be venting but it seems some small changes or awareness would benefit a lot of people.

Re: Changes

Posted by Tired on 5/25/2022, 10:14 am, in reply to "Changes"

Honestly, I love my job.

The only problem is I'm putting in 70-90 hour work weeks and getting paid peanuts for it.

My $2,500 stipend is really an insult to the amount of extra hours I put into this job.

If you're going to take me away from my family, then at least let me bring some cash home to them.

Re: Changes

Posted by Houston on 5/25/2022, 7:04 am, in reply to "Changes"

I would like to know how the number of people leaving teaching compares to other fields in that same 5 year period. A business person can completely change their company and what they are doing but still be "business".

How do the numbers compare between men and women and what are those actual reasons for leaving like you asked, (starting a family, never wanted to work which I know a few of those who are certified teachers but quit after year one to stay home even though they didn't have kids yet).

I think we have to have more info on those first two before we can make anything more than guesses at the rest. Remember competition is primarily a high school thing so are we losing more HS versus MS folks, (and yes, I know those are the same in smaller districts).

Re: Changes

Posted by Also Houston on 5/25/2022, 10:25 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

I feel like your questions are a bit out of touch. Do you not see districts having issues with retention and recruitment?

Also, middle schools are certainly as competition focused as high schools. Perhaps the marching band aspect is not there but don't discount middle schools so easily.

Re: Changes

Posted by Houston on 5/25/2022, 11:53 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

But there have always been retention problems which is why I asked the question. We have short memories. But I know when I started decades ago there were lots of people that started with me and only made it a few years before leaving teaching. I also know in that building there were a number of years that were 50% turnover and in other buildings in the district. Let's get real data to see what the real trend is instead of saying "job boards are full" or "the news says there is a teacher shortage". And that last one, well, there are a LOT of band directors that won't be able to find a job this year because there are more band directors than available jobs so.... Real, hard data.

And yes, MS programs are competitive but NONE of them spend the time that a high school band does. Marching band and then Indoor season are completely different than a middle school band having an hour sectional after school one day a week per section or maybe an hour band rehearsal once a week to record for honor band. Marching bands are doing 8 hours of rehearsal plus games and contests all while also working on region Jazz, Orchestra, and Band. And that's just through December.

Re: Changes

Posted by MSBD on 5/25/2022, 10:36 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

I am a MS BD and I have been working until at least 8:00 p.m. since March. Several nights, like tonight, until 10:00 p.m. - still can't keep up.

Re: Changes

Posted by Wondering on 5/26/2022, 10:54 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

May I ask what you are doing so late at school? I am a MS head director and there has never been a need for me to stay those hours unless we had a concert/performance.

Re: Changes

Posted by Why? on 5/26/2022, 7:31 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

Why would you do that? There can't possibly be that much to do that keeps you there that long after the kids have left the building and if MS kids aren't leaving well before that something is wrong.

Re: Changes

Posted by SouthEast Central on 5/25/2022, 3:46 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

There were 150 undergraduate music majors with me in Theory I.

My graduating class was 9.

My student teaching cohort was 7.

Two of those who graduated with me were transfers from other universities.

How's *that* for retention problems?

And as for your "started with me" remark - of those 9 who graduated, two got undergraduate performance degrees.

Three (myself and one other band director, and one orchestra director) are still teaching. The other four dropped within five years.

The retention issue is real - but as I stated below, I believe it's largely due to the fact that we have TONS of people who graduate from college not knowing what the real world is like.

Too many graduate thinking teaching is going to be like rehearsing a college ensemble or their top high school band. They (by and large) were never in the second, third, or fourth ensembles (or higher in the really big schools). They don't know how to teach via drilling - they expect kids to go home and practice because that's what THEY did. And when they're confronted with the reality of bad attitudes, kids in band because their friends are, kids who can't play with good tone, they sink or swim based upon their own dedication to the TEACHING craft, not their MUSICAL one.

That, IMO, is where the retention issue really lies. Too many people graduate without knowing the reality of teaching - to say nothing of getting saddled with a Music Appreciation elective, or parents who insist their kid needs to play the drums in spite of no coordination whatsoever because "tuba is for the dumb fat kid (heard my fourth year teaching)" or the like.

They need to know what an ARD meeting looks like.

They need to learn about WICOR strategies and all the CRAP we deal with on a day to day basis in the classroom.

They need to know about the latest buzzwords, about things like CHAMPS, about PBIS, Cornell Notes, and all of the stuff that's NOT BAND that we all have to do on a DAILY basis.

And then, when they know about that, it's time to learn how to teach that seventeenth chair clarinet player whose reed is more lipstick than cane.

If we prepared teachers more for a WORST case scenario, and not so ivory-tower perfect world, retention would improve hundreds of percentage points. But no, we just keep hearing "my principal is crazy" and "it's too much time" and "too demanding" when the reality is, we need to learn how to manage all the other JUNK and just get back to the classroom and TEACH. And we need young teachers to learn to teach kids who DON'T KNOW HOW TO LEARN.

Re: Changes

Posted by Houston on 5/26/2022, 7:29 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

Interesting. So for your experiences and opinion it is less about the actual real world environment and more about being prepared for the actual real world environment? In other words, sitting in 10 ensembles with grad students playing amazing literature isn't really prepping teachers to teach and the Ed classes are even more out of date and less useful (my opinion).....

I was trying to find but at one point I remember hearing back in the late 90's a stat that more than half of teachers don't make it past year 5 but I can't find that research. I know everyone is focused on the now but I think teaching has always had a high turnover rate, we just didn't notice it because they didn't get to grandstand on social media on their way out the door.

Re: Changes

Posted by Also Houston on 5/26/2022, 1:28 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

It's not the grandstanding on social media as you put it.

Clearly its an issue if districts are giving incentive pay and increasing base salaries. Clearly its an issue or the HR departments wouldn't be making adjustments and trying to retain employees.

Also, I'm noticing a lot of experienced directors leaving because of burn out and pay issues.

I think just chalking it up "grandstanding" doesn't help.

Honestly, I never understand why people don't support changes and always have to play the "prove it" card. We should always advocate for more. If we don't people will take advantage. That's what's been happening the last decade.

Re: Changes

Posted by Tax Payer on 6/1/2022, 7:57 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

As a tax payer living in the real world with a spouse not in education I don't advocate for more for no reason. Teacher pay is not nearly as low as some people like to claim, (as I've stated on this board many times).

As a teacher I got 18 summers with my kid while my spouse went to work. I got 18 Thanksgivings and 18 Christmas breaks while my spouse went to work. I got 6 uninterrupted weeks every single summer for 18 years to take extended vacations, hang out at the pool, and do whatever I wanted with my child while my spouse went to work. All while making a pretty decent wage. Sometimes things aren't measured by money and as I no longer have that child at home I look back on those times very, VERY fondly and wish I could go back and do it again a little slower. I wouldn't have traded a single summer for a job with more pay and less time off.

Re: Changes

Posted by Respectfully.. on 6/8/2022, 9:11 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

Nowdays, high school directors simply don't get six uninterrupted weeks off in the summer.

Marching band starts the last week of July. TBA and mandatory trainings (such as first aid, CPR, etc) extend back from that about a week.

School and end-of-year inservice goes into the first week of June now. Then there's summer camps, other conventions, DCI trips, leadership workshop and camp, color guard workdays, drumline days, and the rest. We're lucky to get a full two weeks off total in the summer.

As for Thanksgiving break? Football. About HALF of schools have a football game on that Friday/Saturday as well as MORE the week before. Christmas? Two weeks - but nearly every industry runs a skeleton crew during the holidays.

Now multiply that by the fact that for six months a year, you don't get Saturday off either - marching contests, All-Region auditions, Area auditions, musical, Solo & Ensemble Contest, Band Trip, etc. And then add the HOURS worked on top of it - a typical 5A-6A HS HBD *or* ABD's day is 7 AM until 6 PM five school days a week, what with sectionals, rehearsals, supervising private lessons, etc.

Still think it's worth it? Most jobs with 60+ hour six day work weeks in the corporate world pay six-figure salaries. I don't know many band directors getting even close to that.

You simply can not compare the state of things 20 years ago to what's going on now. It's a different world.

Re: Changes

Posted by Self inflicted on 6/8/2022, 3:44 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

Much of what you talked about is self inflicted. I did my camps during May. I didn't do DCI trips and my colorguard and percussion camps didn't start until I was back on contract the 3rd week of July. I didn't do other conventions and TBA is when most high school directors are back on contract. There is absolutely nothing in your contract or even the reality that a once a week drumline rehearsal makes any difference in October.

No Saturdays in the fall sucks. One of the reasons I left. Middle school folks don't deal with that. maybe they are smarter than those of us that did/do the high school thing. Although, I know a number of small school folks that don't do 6 marching contests and have all their games on Friday nights so they really only have a couple of Saturday UIL events and a region event in December.

At some point we have to stop saying we are owed for all of these other voluntary things we have done to ourselves. What are we really getting out of it? Are the kids any happier? Are more kids staying involved in music or are we just driving them away. What happens when these kids become parents? Will they push their kids to band or away?

Re: Changes

Posted by Pay rates on 5/27/2022, 4:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

People are mad about first year teachers making what 10-year veterans made just a few years back.

Never mind that we've had an 8% inflation rate in the past calendar year. Never mind that rent and home prices have essentially doubled since Covid hit.

If rate of pay WASN'T rising as fast as it was, I'd be worried about this profession. Fact is, IMO, we're still not getting paid enough. I didn't get an 8% raise last year, did you?

People are getting out because they can make the same or better money for doing LESS work. And they're posting about it. Call it grandstanding if you wish.

Re: Changes

Posted by Spouse on 6/1/2022, 8:00 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

I didn't get an 8% pay raise. Neither did my wife. Neither did my parents or in-laws on Social security and living off of stock investments. If you start jacking up teacher pay you start jacking up taxes. When you start jacking up taxes you start hitting people even harder when the price of their home doubles and thus, the trickle down is immense on taking away buying power in addition to the high cost of food and gas. At some point, this economy is in real trouble and the government can only take so much money until people don't have any more left to take.....

Re: Changes

Posted by Hands up on 5/28/2022, 11:25 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

I think I’m getting more than 8% raise this year. Retention is a complicated issue. Been teaching 20+ years and considered my options this year. Some things changed n my district, and now I’m excited about next year.

Love the kids. Sometimes the adults are a challenge. Money was not really a factor in my looking or staying; that being said I don’t think it would have been too difficult to find a new career that would come close to what I’m currently making.

Re: Changes

Posted by BDSO on 5/28/2022, 5:59 pm, in reply to "Re: Changes"

"I didn't get an 8% raise last year, did you?"

Actually, I did. Increased the salary schedule by 5%. We already get a 3% bump each for each step. We are also getting another 5% next year, and our insurance is going down dramatically (mine will be going down more than $100/mo with better coverage and more district paid benefits than before). Good teacher pay can be found (and is possible) but you have to look for it and district need to be willing to loosen the purse strings. And, I'm not so sure about the "same or better money for doing LESS work". Is the work hard? Yes. But, I also get one week of for Thanksgiving, two weeks off for Christmas, a week off for spring break, and 10 weeks off for the summer. And, I have a relatively secure career, where unless I screw up big time, I'll still have a job with a built in raise and a retirement fund year after year. Name another career like that. I will concede that teachers aren't getting paid what they should, but we are doing better than some people, including a lot of the families of the students we teach.

Re: Changes

Posted by Thank you! on 6/1/2022, 8:01 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

Finally! Someone else that sees the value of stability. Don't touch a kid, money, or parent and you are basically given a job for life with TONS of time off!

Thank you for stating this!

Re: Changes

Posted by MS on 5/31/2022, 11:17 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

I'd like to point out that those vacations are unpaid.

I know plenty of professions that offer paid time off for most holidays and offer extra paid vacation days.

My wife gets unlimited paid time off. The rule is dont take advantage of it and they won't say anything. They can come in late or leave early as needed. Just get the work done.

She makes way more than me and has a welcoming work environment.

Re: Changes

Posted by Dude on 6/2/2022, 8:11 am, in reply to "Re: Changes"

Unpaid time off with 13 weeks vacation or paid time off with 3 weeks PTO. Teacher makes 65K starting with 13 weeks unpaid vacation. Non-teacher position making 70k with 3 weeks PTO and 6 federal holidays, (that teachers also get).......

I've done both.

Unlimited vacation doesn't translate to 13 weeks vacation. If the work has to get done then it gets done early or late as you said. Unlike teachers that will check out for the summer, (I know a LOT of teachers on Facebook that have posted about their next 6 weeks of wineries, poolside, books, and sleeping in), even your wife will work most of each week this summer. And you need to qualify the WAY more. Because she is contracted for more days so is she really making more or just working more calendar days? If she's making 25% more than you well, that's the other days she is expected to work. If she's making 50% more then we might be talking WAY for a little less work. Remember, you could work the next 4 weeks at summer school and probably make another 3k, maybe 4 if you really are offended about your unpaid time off.

Re: Changes

Posted by My reasons on 5/24/2022, 1:13 pm, in reply to "Changes"

1. FAD who are AFRAID of their HS heads because they know someone on the school board.🙃
2. HS heads who show up late to work, leave during the day, text their assistants the plan for the day 10 minutes before class starts, say everyone should rotate staying late waiting for kids to get picked up….everyone but them of course, find something to complain about you even after you get the best marks at contest. (The kids were tapping their feet during sight reading lmao)
3. Saturday’s, even at the MS, late days during the week for an endless list of things throughout the entire year.
4. Rude, disrespectful, nasty kids who don’t get disciplined past ISS which does nothing to the kids - they see it as free time.
5. Parents who swear their little angels didn’t do what we said they did. Parents who demand you meet with them during your class time instead of during your conference period, followed by administrators who allow it. Apparently, the rude kid who talks all
period and doesn’t do their work so is failing, is way more important than my class of a few students who ACTUALLY want to learn and are speeding through their content because they’re amazing kids.

Etc, etc…

Re: Changes

Posted by HCBD on 5/24/2022, 12:42 pm, in reply to "Changes"

I think the problem more lies with Education as a whole. Yes there are a lot of Band Directors leaving, but there are a lot of teachers leaving overall. The support of public education has never been very strong in my opinion, and now even that little bit of support has eroded away.

It is a number of factors, I don't believe its any one thing. However, I believe you can lump a lot of the attention on TEA and our compensation (or lack thereof). More and more unfunded mandates, required trainings, unattainable standards, silly and time wasting procedures, little parental support, and of course the political discourse that rips apart the institution.

Competitive Marching Band is far from the only educational positions that people are leaving in droves, although I think we can take a look at that as well. I am always looking for ways to be at home more, but it seems that more and more I am away. Honestly, not sure about what to do about it.

I wonder if next year will be even worse for education. With everyone leaving, those of us still left will have to pick up the slack and there is not going to be some big push to do anything about that in the next two months. Look how long it took to put together some BS "task force".

Re: Changes

Posted by SouthEast Central on 5/24/2022, 11:58 am, in reply to "Changes"

With the number of directors who are leaving the profession and young directors who leave after only a few years, is it time we change?

Not necessarily. There are already more young directors entering the profession than there are jobs. Lots of people get into teaching for the wrong reasons.
Let's not blow up the whole system because a few are dissatisfied.

What are the root causes and can we do something to help alleviate that?

I think a more realistic depiction of a director's day and responsibilities outside of teaching music from our general education classes would help. People don't realize the level of STUFF that goes into being a teacher.

Are we too competition focused?

When was the last time you really talked to someone from HISD, DISD, FWISD, EPISD, AISD, or another "inner city" ISD and talked about the difference those directors were making in those kids lives? Or is nearly all of our perception focused 100% towards contest scores and "success?"

I know on my part that there are GREAT directors in many urban ISDs that would be honor band level directors if placed in front of a suburban program with those resources and parent support. We are WAY too focused on UIL, BOA, SMC, and MARCHING BAND to the exclusion of nearly all else.

I know some people say if you don't want to focus on competition than don't, but it's not that simple when admin says they also want that because they see it happening down the street.

Do we not advocate enough for work/life balance?

How many directors under 30 are still single?
How many over 40 are on their second marriage or are just divorced? ABSOLUTELY there is not enough work-life balance.

I've seen plenty of head directors demand their assistants stay because they are still working. The assistants feel trapped. Or staying late on a Friday night because we need to update the music library.

Do we allow the few to make decisions for the majority?

Yes. And any time someone here suggests differently the response is usually "go be a head director somewhere and YOU can make the decisions."

Not everyone has the same resources and it seems the same directors make the decisions based on their needs and programs and everyone goes with it because they are successful so they must know what they are doing. But it doesn't always work for everyone and people don't get a chance to be heard. There are directors out there who get their way at region meetings.

Do we get enough support from FAD's and campus admin or just demands on our time and energy?

Absolutely not. I've met my FAD once, and I'm in a major suburban ISD. I've had ten-twenty minutes of sitdown time with my principal outside of evaluation conferences this year. They're stretched way too thin. That affects their ability to advocate for us and help us. It also adds to the "last minute" stuff because they simply can't keep up with the demands on their time.

I get it, it's a job and we have bosses but at what point can we say "that's not possible" without getting reprimanded. At what point is it ok to say, please give me more notice or time to work on that. Last minute emails demanding things by the end of the day isn't possible when you have a full class load.

I have a personal story about this, but I won't share it here out of respect to all of the other directors involved. But suffice to say "that's not possible" is NEVER what a principal is willing to hear.

To be a bit snarky, on the last minute thing, though - maybe if they're going to treat us like a jukebox, we should act like one. Add money or we don't play.

I may just be venting but it seems some small changes or awareness would benefit a lot of people.

Re: Changes

Posted by Art Vandelay on 5/24/2022, 10:16 am, in reply to "Changes"

There are other states where music teachers love teaching music outside of Texas.

The competition is what I loved in TX, but the lifestyle is not sustainable.

Re: Changes

Posted by Small school director on 5/24/2022, 10:00 am, in reply to "Changes"

I taught in a large school only a couple of years in my career. Between night rehearsals and private lessons I had zero family time. I went back to small schools and enjoyed life again. After 30 years I retired-rehired and taught another 12 very enjoyable years. I highly recommend it for those of you with burnout. Stressing enjoyment of music over competition was very rewarding for my kids and me.

Re: Changes

Posted by Kirkland on 5/24/2022, 9:51 am, in reply to "Changes"

I think it just varies from district to district. Not everyone is in the field of work for the same reasons as well so a position where one might think would be Mecca, could be a terrible spot for another.

I see lots of good patches of people who still love their job and their success are an example of that. But just as much I see lots of teachers that seem to can't catch a break.

I also see both new and old teachers leaving all at the same time so it's not like its affecting just one part of our profession.

You make you job, your life what you want it to be regardless of the circumstances.

Re: Changes

Posted by Thank God . . . on 5/24/2022, 9:43 am, in reply to "Changes"

. . . I'm retired. If I wasn't, I'd be doing everything I could to get out of education.

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