The Yellow Board

Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Thunder on 4/13/2022, 7:38 am

Hell again! Giving more thought to what I posted a couple of days ago, another question:

What do coaches tell our kids that we don't that cause kids to gravitate towards sports instead of band? Or to put it better, what do we not tell our kids that the coaches do?

I've been giving it a lot of thought and the band staff where I am all have similar reasons for continuing with music: It is a passion for all of us and we find high levels of gratification when we perform and know we gave it our 100% all.

We all want to build a culture where the thrill of a great performance is ingrained within our students but we have two hiccups: 1, we don't get as many performance opportunities, especially in the spring, and 2, that it is not intrinsic to most students.

So... Building a culture of students who work hard towards a great performance instead of "We need to beat this group."

How do you build that? How and where does it start?

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Great on 4/18/2022, 9:16 am, in reply to "Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

This is a great question. I've said for years we need to stop complaining about why kids are willing to quit band to be a bench warmer. What makes that more attractive than band? When we figure that out we start to keep kids active. I've never wanted to fight with sports programs or coaches. Learn from them.

It's like asking the homeless guy how to become a millionaire. You wouldn't. So let's watch the athletics and see how they are doing it and then copy it.

As far as performances, I always tried to keep my kids performing as often as possible. In JH I would do performances monthly with different music, (September football, October Fall concert, November bled into December with several Christmas performances, January with the high school, February was usually short so it bled into Pre-UIL and such in March and April then Spring concert in May). Some of those were shared titles but I would do my absolute best to get 20 or more pieces of music in front of JH kids regularly. Throw in ensembles and a Jazz band and the title count doubles or more.

With HS every football game had different music, (most of it was the same but we always added 1 or 2 new songs every week). High schools also were constantly performing in the winter and spring with indoor season, Jazz ensembles, S/E, recruiting concerts, side-by-sides, spring trips, UIL, and spring concert. Again, I wanted 30 plus football tunes in the Fall plus another 18 concert titles sprinkled over the course of a year. I also started concert season on the 1st day of school along with Marching band because music is music. And my Jazz ensembles by Spring could do almost 2 hours worth of music, (we often spent the spring doing dinner music or music while crowds were arriving to events and such).

I didn't lose as many kids to athletics. We shared a lot but they wanted to do both instead of just athletics. I think the variety helped keep them interested and willing.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Tuba-kun on 4/18/2022, 8:11 pm, in reply to "Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

I think when it comes to choosing to ride a bench over staying in band, some band directors aren't willing to admit they're not as likeable as they think they are, and that they haven't really connected with the kids on a level to where the kid wants to stay in their class, not because they like band itself but because they like the teacher. Or maybe you're not unlikable per say, but the school just might have some VERY likeable coaches. Those first few years where a kid has to put in a lot of effort for little return are when the student values the social nature of band more than the instrument. They put up with the instrument to continue the positive experience with a teacher they like (assuming it IS positive). Eventually the instrument will often win them over but this can take several years...a lot of kids quit before that ever happens.

The kid might be ditching you for the same reason an SO calls it off in favor of someone better. Your personality might just flat out not be up to par. Though I think there's way too much ego in this profession for most band directors to admit that.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Mr. Dude on 4/13/2022, 1:51 pm, in reply to "Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

In my experience…it’s not the coaches. It’s the parents, most of the time. And not just their parents…all of the parents. Parents feel like they have to “keep up with the Jones’s” through their kids. They think they won’t keep their community status if their kid is a band kid and not an athlete.

It’s a community thing. There are a few communities out there that are great “band towns”. Then, there are a few “bandwagon band” towns…meaning when they’re doing well, the support is there. Then there are some “band doesn’t matter no matter what towns”. I’ve worked at all of these places. In the latter, it doesn’t matter what you or the coaches say, it’s an uphill battle to keep kids in band. You compete against travel baseball which isn’t even offered in school.

So, in order to build that culture in your band hall, and you extended band families, you have to try and build up the culture in your community. Here are some way we attempt to do it.

1. We pick crowd pleasing shows for our marching programs. We attempt to entertain our crowd every Friday night. The kids get a good pop from the crowd, they gain a little confidence and buy in, then they sell it a little more each week until we get to contests and now their completely bought in and the pops get bigger on Fridays.

2. Build strong relationships with your coaches, the sport booster program, and other “local people of importance”. When those people start posting on social media about how the band did at contest (or even better, the halftime show at a football game), the rest of the community starts to accept band as something else.

3. Support your kids that do other things. Go to volleyball games, congratulate a football player after the game on a big play, hang out at the baseball and softball parks on game nights, go to the FFA banquet, go to confirmation…the parents notice.

4. Get out of the band hall during your “conference” period. Get to know the other teachers.

5. Start a pep band, make it a “leadership” or a volunteer band. Take them places like a home volleyball game against the local rival and play when you can as loud as you can. It’s well known in our town that our volleyball team is undefeated when the band is there. Take them to the retired teachers meeting to do a little concert in the spring, or the elementary school. Get with the chamber of commerce and local veterans groups and ask for performance opportunities. Make other performances happen. We played at HEB in the store when they had their “back to school” sale. Then we did some flash mob antics in the store. IT WAS ALL OVER SOCIAL MEDIA before we left.

6. Start a Facebook page, twitter account, Instagram page, TikTok account, and whatever else is prevalent in your community. And sell every accomplishment your kids have. PROMOTE YOUR CONCERTS. Go LIVE from performances. When we marched at Disney world, we went Facebook Live, we had 200 people watch live, and 5000 views before we got back to the hotel. We are a 3A school in a small town.

It won’t happen overnight, but never accept that way things are, do the work for the kids, and they’ll do the work for themselves.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by THIS! on 4/18/2022, 9:20 am, in reply to "Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

All of this makes a HUGE difference.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by SouthEast Central on 4/13/2022, 12:11 pm, in reply to "Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

Your question goes to the very heart of human nature.

We're tribal. We want our "team" to beat the other "team" in some way. It's why sports are a thing. It's part of why politics is so partisan. We all want to, in some way, destroy our enemies.

In band, we compete against a standard. There's no opponent to leave behind on the field of victory. It's simply an evaluation - and our kids are conditioned from third grade on that evaluations (read: tests) are a boring, waste of time and are stressful.

That's part of why marching band is so successful. We COMPETE. It's heat-of-the-moment (so dopamine rush) and it's a win or lose situation.

Remember, your kids will NEVER love music the way you do. Some (a very few) more - most less. But they'll never hear it with your ears. Your favorite piece may never be a piece that even captures their interest. We can't rely on "teach to the kids who love it" because simply put band music/classical music isn't something they love for 95% of your students. If it were, then why don't we have 450 community bands in every metro area full of former band kids that played four years of high school? They walk away - and will walk away - after their senior year, until and unless they have a kid that joins up in sixth grade.

IMO, the solution is either (1) we make the Spring band semester more competitive somehow, possibly by bringing in the opportunity for advancement with C&SR contest (Honor band tries to do this, but honor band isn't financially feasible for 99 out of 100 programs, realistically) or (2) we find ways to showcase ourselves more. Those annoying concerts in the park? Those people who call and say "Can the band play at the dedication of our new feed store?" Yeah. We need to do that. We have to get ourselves out there.

To borrow from Dr. Tim: It's not what you CAN do, it's not what you WILL do, but what you DO do that makes you who you are. What are we/you DOING to make the public sit up and take notice of you/us from December through July?

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by NLABD on 4/13/2022, 10:29 am, in reply to "Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

It's not just what the coaches say - it is how society holds up sports as a thing.
Look how any channels are devoted to it. Look at the plethora of jobs that exist that just talk about it! There is a whole section in the paper devoted to sports and kids get recognized in high school in large areas and as early as middle school in smaller ones.

It is an uphill battle for sure.

But I think this is a great discussion - how to we market what we teach so that others recognize its importance the way WE know it is important.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by 1A HBD on 4/13/2022, 11:36 am, in reply to "Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

I will add to this, that even junior high kids are getting scholarship offers from D1 Universities.

Part of the attraction of sports vs band is the opportunity for money.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Can't on 4/18/2022, 9:02 am, in reply to "Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

There are very specific rules on how NCAA athletics work. Junior high kids are not getting scholarship offers. They might be getting looked at but a lot happens between 14 and 18. Kids can verbally commit and what not but until that senior year there isn't really an offer. One broken leg or an extra 20 pounds slowing down a running back and that interest is gone.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Respectfully on 4/18/2022, 12:27 pm, in reply to "Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

The NCAA website itself disagrees with you.

While they aren't getting a formal, written offer, there are plenty of coaches that will offer a "scholarship" via a verbal commitment as young as 8th grade.

(Granted, a verbal commitment is worth the paper it's printed on, but ..)

Recruiting - NCAA

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by me on 4/13/2022, 10:28 am, in reply to "Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

It's a hard slope to climb. If you're looking at it from the student's perspective they are probably wondering why they spend so much time playing an instrument. I know I did even in college. I still sit here in my office and I wonder why I'm teaching band. I had an administrator give me the best advice I ever got. "Teach band like it's bigger than life." Most kids are going through something in their life when they walk into our building, a range of differing emotions. Fine arts and sports help these kids find something that's different from what their other problems are. It's when the sport or band become part of the problem that they don't want to do either. You've already listed a lot of the advantages that sports have. It's hard to compete with that and honestly we do not have the budget to hang with that in most school districts. Obviously the way you can overcome this is by having really good all region and solo and ensemble programs and do stuff with that all of the time. Also, in bigger schools, you will have things like indoor drumline and guard. These kind of things make band like sports because the students in the program are always doing something with the knowledge they get in your class and therefore want to be involved with band. I would say "always maintain a positive classroom climate" but it's not possible in a lot of school districts. There are places in the trenches where you have to dig music out of students (a lot of rural and urban schools.) Even places where student success is always happening in band have to push kids every time they rehearse. I think the number one idea I have here is that students will not respect band enough to want to stay if there is not enough rigor or growth going on all the time. Students will quit band and go to other things too when they're pushed. However, you don't want kids in your band that don't want to do the work. I've had an ensemble where 40% of the kids were there because they knew we were successful but didn't want to get things done in rehearsals. A lot of directors prefer smaller ensembles because you're left with the ones that will work for you. A lot of parents want their child in your band because they know you will work them hard and make them better people. If you're ever in a situation where you have to beg people to do stuff then it's time to consider whether staying there is worth it. Never back away from standards, have high expectations of your kids and work like crazy. The students will notice and you will get them to follow you. If you let up they'll lose respect and go somewhere where they feel like they're accomplishing something. Best of luck.

Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't?

Posted by Old Timer on 4/23/2022, 8:53 pm, in reply to "Re: Follow up: What do the coaches tell our kids that we don't? "

Having taught since 1972 I have dealt with many coaches. Kids love their sports and in some districts it was difficult to keep kids in band to graduation no thanks to the nerd image band kids had. There were coaches that referred to band kids that way. But the longer I taught in a district the better the retention in band and the less I heard "band nerds". One year I had almost all of the varsity football starters in band and they informed their coaches that they were athletes and "band jocks". Of course that was small schools where all programs had to share kids. Having a football team that seldom won district and a band that brought home Sweepstakes for decades didn't hurt band retention either.

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