Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board

Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board
[ Hardy Palm and Subtropical Board ]

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Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/13/2019, 10:00 pm

Nashville yard-

Very cool agave-

Thanks,

Tommy

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Ben OK <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Ben+OK' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/15/2019, 9:33 pm, in reply to "Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

That needle in the second picture looks ancient. I don't have a good guess at how old, but I would think 25 years at least. What do you think?

Kano ako, Pinoy kayo?

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/16/2019, 2:50 am, in reply to "Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Hey Ben. The guy said he thinks it's been there over 30 years. Edited because I can't spell.

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Jim Wilmington DE 7a <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Jim+Wilmington+DE+7a' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/16/2019, 5:52 pm, in reply to "Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Planted a 1-gallon Needle in 2007 here in northern Delaware.

Today, it's the size of those in your photos.

It suffered irreversible spear loss of its main "trunk" a good few years back, but the many suckers (or pups) that surrounded the central trunk kept on trucking to this day.

All in all, Needles are winners for this region, although no one plants them here.

Lastly, I've found by experiment that Needles do better planted on the north side of a building rather than on the south side. It's counterintuitive, I know. But it's the truth. My southern exposure Needle grows slowly (it's half the size of my north facing, same aged Needle) and bronzes moderately in winter winds and sun unless wrapped. The north facing Needle does not bronze even a little bit. Has to be the lack of winter sun.

For east coastal Zone 7a, Needles are the only palm that's 90% good to go. Next, I would say Sabal Birmingham. Yes, even over Sabal Minor. My Birmy is a TROOPER. But grows painfully slow. Next, Sabal Minor 'McCurtain.' Then Sabal Minor 'Hatteras'. Next, a bit of a surprise: Sabal Palmetto. Then Trachycarpus Nainital.

And this is actually a better picture:

Zone 7a
R. Hystrix
S. 'Birmingham'

Zone 7b
Sabal Minor
Sabal Palmetto
Trachycarpus

Can you grow the 7b plants in 7a? Sure. But ALL 3 of the 7b's get lit up every other winter. To the point that half the time, you've got a recovering palm on your hands, which kind of defeats the purpose of having them.

Butias, Serenoa and Chamaerops are 8a palms in my book. Although Med Fans, due to their very compact size, lend themselves well to cold protection schemes in zones colder than 8a.

Jim, Wilmington, DE, 7a
Last 30 Years Avg. Winter Low: 7.50F
Last 20 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.35F
Last 10 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.40F
Favorite Palms: Species: Phoenix Canariensis / Genus: Sabal

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by TomPAz6A <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=TomPAz6A' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/16/2019, 10:45 pm, in reply to "Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Those are nice old Needles and that agave is a beauty too!

South facing Needle

Posted by TomPAz6A <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=TomPAz6A' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/16/2019, 10:52 pm, in reply to "Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Your hardiness list is interesting. I’m surprised to see Sabal Minor as less hardy than Birmingham. I planted a Birmingham this year so I’ve got a test on my hands here.
I planted this Needle against a SW facing wall. Hopefully it will do well.

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/17/2019, 3:15 am, in reply to "Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

I love that agave!

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/17/2019, 3:16 am, in reply to "Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Jim,

Can you post a recent picture of your needle that you planted in 2007? The only needle picture I remember seeing was a small needle and I'd love to see your big one.

Thanks!

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

Re: South facing Needle

PLEASE keep us posted on the Birmy!

And for that matter, the Needle too, since you're in 6a.

If I was anywhere colder than 7a, I would chicken out and only plant a Needle south facing. I would not experiment with north facing.

But to be honest, I wouldn't plant palms at all in 6b or colder. And in 6b or colder, it's actually hard to find good, leafy BLEs of any kind. 7a is really the zone where your BLE choices widen up. I'm talking things like cherry laurels, photinias, aucubas, magnolias, camellias, and so forth.

With a few leafy BLEs, a couple of hardy yuccas, and some creativity, you can create a very "tropical" looking outdoor space in the Middle Atlantic.

Re: Sabal Birmigham hardiness

I can only tell you my experience. All palms were planted in 2007. So, this is with a dozen years experience.

Because I planted the Birminghan in front of a church business office, I could not burlap wrap it or stick a trashcan over it for winter. It would be too unsightly and give off a bad vibe. So, all it gets every year is a pretty big mound of mulch. It is sited against a granite east-facing wall. The soil profile is most unusual. The top 6 inches or so is tan colored clay. Under that is a couple of feet of sand! The result is a very fast draining soil, but also very easy for the roots to penetrate. In terms of winter damage, the palm has defoliated completely, except the spear, on maybe 2 (out of 12) occasions. My Minors, by comparison, have defoliated (except the spear) 4 or 5 years. Additionally, when the Birmingham isn't defoliated, it hardly damages at all, except maybe a few white "pin holes" which it is susceptible to. So, it's either all or nothing. The regular Minors can show all kinds of intermediate damage. As sort of a rough guesstimate, my Minors go undamaged a third of the winters, get severely damaged a third of the winters, and get moderately damaged the remaining third. They've never lost a spear, though, and always recover. In contrast, the Birmingham gets severely damaged 1/6th of the winters, and only superficially damaged/not damaged at all 5/6ths of the time.

Jim, Wilmington, DE, 7a
Last 30 Years Avg. Winter Low: 7.50F
Last 20 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.35F
Last 10 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.40F
Favorite Palms: Species: Phoenix Canariensis / Genus: Sabal

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Jim Wilmington DE 7a <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Jim+Wilmington+DE+7a' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/18/2019, 3:24 pm, in reply to "Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

I'll get one for you, Tommy!

In fact, I'll get a bunch of palm pics together soon.

Keep checking the board.

Jim, Wilmington, DE, 7a
Last 30 Years Avg. Winter Low: 7.50F
Last 20 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.35F
Last 10 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.40F
Favorite Palms: Species: Phoenix Canariensis / Genus: Sabal

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/19/2019, 3:37 am, in reply to "Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Oh good. Thanks!

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

The 6b exception- Northern vs Southern- where the zone map fails

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/19/2019, 4:02 am, in reply to "Re: South facing Needle"

For the Mid-Atlantic and Northeast, I agree with you.

Then there's the Southern 6b. Definitely by the old- and even in some areas by the new- USDA zone map, there are areas of 6b in the South that have enormous magnolias, minors and needles in the wide open. Northwest Arkansas, Southern Kentucky, Northeast Tennessee and Western North Carolina come to mind.

Where the palm guru of Tennessee, Mr. Cole, has grown palms since before the 1960s (through the TN all-time record lows), is almost definitely located in 6b per the old zone map in Quebec, TN. Sabal minor has naturalized there for over 50 years and is found all over the area. He has enormous ancient needles.

Nashville- an old zone USDA 6b has some of the largest magnolias I have seen in my life- and I've been all over the South. Some are estimated to be pre-date the Civil War in the Nashville City Cemetery. I've shown some large live oaks as well. There are large cotton fields in Middle and West Tennessee in areas that were also rated 6b on the old zone map.

The only time I use the zone map now is when I mentally compare zones within a region. For example: Nashville vs Birmingham. Seattle vs Portland. Baltimore vs New York City. Boise vs Salt Lake City. The coast and mountains just skew reality too much in the world of flora and fauna.

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

Re: Nice old needles spotted in Nashville

Posted by WSimpson NC <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=WSimpson+NC' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/20/2019, 12:22 pm, in reply to "Nice old needles spotted in Nashville"

Getting some size on them Tommy .
I'm thinking about trimming the suckers down so as to give mine that Bull Needle look with a fat trunk .
Will

Winston-Salem
Ten year lows: 12F 15F 19F 20F 5F 4F 15F 7F 8F (14F 2019)
10 Year Average Winter Lowest Low 11.9F ; 30 Year 11.7F
Profession:Trachy Defiberer and Palm Spear Puller (free estimates)

Re: The 6b exception- Northern vs Southern- where the zone map fails

Posted by Jim Wilmington DE 7a <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Jim+Wilmington+DE+7a' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/21/2019, 8:34 am, in reply to "The 6b exception- Northern vs Southern- where the zone map fails"

Tommy, agree with you on all points.

Accepting everything you said, I would simply tack on that I think what you call "Southern 6b" shows an amazing plant palette for the following reasons -- all theory from my head, not a book or other source: First, as a practical matter, if you were a living thing outdoors in Nashville, as opposed to, say, Harrisburg, PA, you would notice that Harrisburg is colder. The sun angle is lower, daily highs and lows would average out colder than Nashville. This would help explain the presence of plants in Nashville that we associate with warmer places, as well as their absence in Harrisburg. But the great equalizer in determining the zone designation is the winter minima, not average lows. And in this regard, what Nashville has working against it in winter is its distance from "big water" and it's location on the western side of the Appalacians. An arctic airmass plunging down from Canada or the northern plains is going to be just a little more moderated, usually, by the time it hits Harrisburg than it might be when it hits Nashville. Hence, the typical winter early morning in Nashville is warmer than Harrisburg, but on zone-defining mornings, Nashville can get every bit as cold as Harrisburg gets. And that's the criteria for these zone maps.

The comparison works for 7a as well. Wilmington, Delaware is 7a. So is Knoxville, Tennessee. But I'd much rather try to grow marginals in Knoxville than Wilmington. Still, there can be nasty winter minimae in Knoxville, exacerbated by Knoxville's altitude and proximity to even higher altitude mountains.

NB: The zones attributed to the locations in this post are taken from the 1990 ("cold") USDA map. Add a half zone for the 2012 map. Doesn't affect the general gist of the post.

Jim, Wilmington, DE, 7a
Last 30 Years Avg. Winter Low: 7.50F
Last 20 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.35F
Last 10 Years Avg. Winter Low: 8.40F
Favorite Palms: Species: Phoenix Canariensis / Genus: Sabal

Re: The 6b exception- Northern vs Southern- where the zone map fails

Posted by Tommy Nashville-Miami <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Tommy+Nashville-Miami' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/21/2019, 8:54 pm, in reply to "Re: The 6b exception- Northern vs Southern- where the zone map fails"

Yes agreed as well. The lack of protection runs all the way to the Gulf- hence Florida's -2F. However, in my experience, repetitive, long-lasting cold seems more damaging than 1 or 2 punch arctic lows. If not, the ancient magnolias, 1960s needles and minors, etc. would have been gone long ago. That's why I make the distinction. In the Facebook groups, people in isolated pockets of Michigan 6b/7a are purchasing plants that they see people in 7a Arkansas growing and wonder what is wrong.

An unfortunate part is that an arctic blast feels horrible here because chances are, we would have been in the 60s just days prior.

"Oh, Dixie Land, I hope you understand
When I miss my Tennessee Home
And I've been away way too long
I can't see this world unless I go
Outside my Southern Comfort Zone"- Brad Paisley

Re: South facing Needle

Posted by Terry 6b7a NJ <iframe src='https://members3.boardhost.com/HardyPalm/info/user=Terry+6b7a+NJ' width='330' height='300' border=0 style='border:none;'> on 6/23/2019, 4:12 pm, in reply to "Re: South facing Needle"

Hi Jim (long time!)...While I agree with much of what you're saying, I think however 6b can still get away with almost as many as 7a (not referring to a 'southern' 6b or 7a) or at least enough worthy choices. Many you mention I still see not just right here but a bit north of me too. Maybe not Photina or Camelia (except maybe one variety or 2?), but it's not uncommon to see Aucuba, Cherry Laurel, Magnolia, Crepe Myrtle, Y. Recurvifolia and such in 6b if not solid 6. Even Monkey Puzzle up in NW NJ and New England, and likewise Magnolia. Could throw in Rhodea Japonica for something smaller. Some might depend on the cultivar like Crepe Myrtles and Magnolias, but if people know or better yet the nurrseries offer those then they should make it long term.
Same with palms...surely not many but again with the right ecotype, cultivar or hybrid could make the difference. A colder Minor ecotype can likely make it (w/o direct wind), a Birmingham as I had one myself that did good until ants destroyed roots. Needles more difficult I'm sure below 7a, but if protected longer to get truly established maybe then but to get large I'd be amazed. Lol

Rain 50"/year - Elev.< 250 ft.
22 miles west of downtown Manhattan
GARDEN STATE -Lowland wooded swamp
Remnant glacial swamp(meltwaters)from Ice Age
State Dinosaur: Hadrosaurus Foulkii(plant-eater)

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