: These are
: the same people who discrimate against
: non-ethnic Catalns in the job market, civil
: service and teaching profession. School
: children who do not support independence are
: discriminated against by their teachers and
: ethnicity plays a significant role in this.
: Guy, stick to facts and demonstrate them.
: It's easy to speak without showing facts -
: it's call PROPAGANDA.
: "Children who do not support
: independence are discriminated"
: What next ? Children at the kindergarden ?
: --Previous Message--
: --Previous Message--
: I'm shocked. What xenophobic words, Jose.
: You misunderstood me completely.
: Wouldn't you agree that a scotsman who moved
: to London 50 years ago can remain a true
: scotsman, keep the scottish traditions,
: scottish culture, beliefs, and raise his
: children and grand-children as true scotsmen
: Wouldn't you agree that a bavarian who moved
: to Bonn 50 years ago can remain a true
: bavarian, keep the bavarian traditions,
: bavarian culture, beliefs, and raise his
: children and grand-children as true
: bavarians ?
: Or would you consider them "true"
: Londoners or Bonn citizens ?
: If the galician, extremeños or andaluzian
: who moved to Barcelona lost their
: traditions, culture and beliefs, just
: because they studied in catalonian schools
: and universities, I pity them.
: They lost their identity !
: Portugal has a long tradition of
: In the countries where they moved to, they
: keep the portuguese traditions, culture and
: beliefs and consider themselves portuguese
: rather than "natives" from the
: countries where they settled in.
: And even inside the country, people from the
: several regions who moved, say, to Lisbon,
: consider themselves Minhotos, Beirões,
: Transmontanos, Alentejanos, Madeirenses or
: Azoreans, rather than Lisboners.
: There is nothing xenophobic on that.
: The children and grandchildren of those
: “poor expat foreigners” who came in the 50s
: and 60s are “pure Catalans”, have been
: educated in Catalan schools/universities,
: have worked hard for the growth of the
: region. The have now a complete right to
: decide about the region they were born and
: where their families live.
: “Native Catalans”, “move home”, “true
: Catalans, “foreigners”, “expats”, “too bad
: for them” … What horrible expressions! You
: are describing and defending some of the
: reasons for the dangerous social fracture in
: Spain/Cataluña. R.
: --Previous Message--
: You may not like
: the official Spanish reaction, but the
: Constitution supports the maintenance of a
: unified Spain. How the unification is
: maintained may not always be pleasant, or
: strike secessionists as just, but the law is
: on the side of Rajoy.
: Seriously, do you know any constitution that
: allows a secession of a region, state or
: province ?
: There's a process of constitutional
: amendments that can be enacted to permit
: referenda on the issue of independence.
: Spain, naturally, is unwilling to go down
: that route.
: So what is your solution ?
: Catalonia is condemned to remain part of
: Spain until Madrid decides to think
: otherwise in ... 50 or 100 years ?
: Until they can come to a Constitutional
: arrangement whereby a legal referendum is
: permitted and takes place in a free and fair
: Well, when a country seeks for independence
: or more autonomy, it hardly gets it on basis
: of a negotiation.
: If the american independists were waiting
: for a negotiation, today you might have a
: ... british passport and be a british colon
: in Texas .
: Besides, more than 50% of eligible Catalan
: voters don't consider themselves
: "condemned to remain part of
: Spain." The separatists have yet to
: even gain a simple majority of 50% + 1 of
: the electorate's support.
: I know that more than 50% of catalan voters
: are against the independence.
: But are you sure how many of the catalan
: voters are true catalans ?
: In the 50s and 60s, when Catalonia had its
: great economic boom, people from all Spain,
: mainly from the poorer regions of Galicia,
: Extremadura and Andaluzia, moved to
: Catalonia and established there.
: Are those "foreigners" and
: "expats" that will have the right
: to tell the catalans how they would live ?
: Are there any serious census or polls
: showing the true number of
: "native" catalans and there sense
: of vote ?
: If galicians, extremeños and andaluzian do
: not feel comfortable living in an
: independent Catalonia, too bad for them.
: Either they adjust or move "home"
: to where they came from.
: I would not want a foreigner to dictate
: orders in my own house or my country.
: I feel that EU already intrudes too much in
: the lives of european countries bearing in
: mind that the EU is not a federation of
: I guess many american states have more
: autonomy than most european countries... who
: are not Germany or France and their closest
: Few secessions were peaceful.
: The Czech Republik and Slovakia come to mind
: as a honourable exception.
: Of course all constitutions maintain the
: unity of the country, which doesn't mean
: that a region, state or province may not
: aspire to its independence or in a lesse
: grade, more autonomy.
: But if the central state remains closed in
: its ivory tower surrounded by the
: constitution, dialogue may proove a bit
: Dialogue hasn't been a talking point for
: separatists for a while now. If it had been,
: then greater strides would have been made
: towards permitting a legal referendum,
: rather than declaring unilaterally that one
: would occur, knowing for a fact that it was
: in violation of the constitution.
: What Catalonia did these days, Portugal did
: the same in 1640 - I guess whe have a debt
: of gratitude towards Catalonia .
: When Catalonia rebelled against Madrid,
: Olivares send all troops staying in Portugal
: to fight the secessionists and it was easier
: for us to proclaim the independence.
: Times have changed. The role of the
: nation-state has changed. Despite the wishes
: of some of my fellow Texans that we secede
: from the US and re-establish the Republic of
: Texas, I and every other Texan who is able
: to separate my love for my state from my
: knowledge of constitutional law recognize
: that we're Americans and we're always going
: to be Americans.
: Of course, at the time, there was no
: constitution nor any famous article 155 that
: Madrid could invoke.
: But Portugal and Spain were at war (not very
: serious - a couple of battles every odd
: year) for 28 long years.
: Hope the declaration of independence will
: not produce such result.
: Doubtful, given that the separatists can't
: command a majority in their own would-be
: nation-state. It's hard to declare
: independence when less than 50 percent of
: your voting-eligible potential citizenry
: want to be independent.
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