: --Previous Message--
: I'm shocked. What xenophobic words, Jose.
: You misunderstood me completely.
: Wouldn't you agree that a scotsman who moved
: to London 50 years ago can remain a true
: scotsman, keep the scottish traditions,
: scottish culture, beliefs, and raise his
: children and grand-children as true scotsmen
: Wouldn't you agree that a bavarian who moved
: to Bonn 50 years ago can remain a true
: bavarian, keep the bavarian traditions,
: bavarian culture, beliefs, and raise his
: children and grand-children as true
: bavarians ?
: Or would you consider them "true"
: Londoners or Bonn citizens ?
: If the galician, extremeños or andaluzian
: who moved to Barcelona lost their
: traditions, culture and beliefs, just
: because they studied in catalonian schools
: and universities, I pity them.
: They lost their identity !
: Portugal has a long tradition of
: In the countries where they moved to, they
: keep the portuguese traditions, culture and
: beliefs and consider themselves portuguese
: rather than "natives" from the
: countries where they settled in.
If what you say would be a rule, than there wouldn't be any Brazilians, Argentines, Chileans, Australians or New Zealanders because everyone would kept their Portuguese, Spanish, French, German, English, Irish, Japanese, Lebanese, Chinese traditions, cultures, etc, etc. (except for the natives peoples of these countries).
So, for you Constantine of Greece is a true Dane, right? And Michael of Romania and Simeon of Bulgaria are, of course, Germans. Do you also consider Felipe VI to be a Frenchman?
And regarding Portuguese immigrants, well, you may have a very Portuguese first generation in France, Germany or the USA but their children and grand children are perfectly integrated in the place where they were born and, altough they might be proud of their heritage, they are, of course, French, German and American.
The same way we are happy to see the children of Chinese, Ukrainian, Russian, Romanian, Angolan or Brazilian immigrants perfectly integrated in Portuguese society and proud to be Portuguese.
But that's a total different discussion because you can't compare these cases with those of people from Seville, Madrid or Coruña living in Barcelona. They are Spaniards living in what is today Spain (no matter what you defend for Catalonia). They are not foreign immigrants.
: And even inside the country, people from the
: several regions who moved, say, to Lisbon,
: consider themselves Minhotos, Beirões,
: Transmontanos, Alentejanos, Madeirenses or
: Azoreans, rather than Lisboners.
: There is nothing xenophobic on that.
: The children and grandchildren of those
: “poor expat foreigners” who came in the 50s
: and 60s are “pure Catalans”, have been
: educated in Catalan schools/universities,
: have worked hard for the growth of the
: region. The have now a complete right to
: decide about the region they were born and
: where their families live.
: “Native Catalans”, “move home”, “true
: Catalans, “foreigners”, “expats”, “too bad
: for them” … What horrible expressions! You
: are describing and defending some of the
: reasons for the dangerous social fracture in
: Spain/Cataluña. R.
: --Previous Message--
: You may not like
: the official Spanish reaction, but the
: Constitution supports the maintenance of a
: unified Spain. How the unification is
: maintained may not always be pleasant, or
: strike secessionists as just, but the law is
: on the side of Rajoy.
: Seriously, do you know any constitution that
: allows a secession of a region, state or
: province ?
: There's a process of constitutional
: amendments that can be enacted to permit
: referenda on the issue of independence.
: Spain, naturally, is unwilling to go down
: that route.
: So what is your solution ?
: Catalonia is condemned to remain part of
: Spain until Madrid decides to think
: otherwise in ... 50 or 100 years ?
: Until they can come to a Constitutional
: arrangement whereby a legal referendum is
: permitted and takes place in a free and fair
: Well, when a country seeks for independence
: or more autonomy, it hardly gets it on basis
: of a negotiation.
: If the american independists were waiting
: for a negotiation, today you might have a
: ... british passport and be a british colon
: in Texas .
: Besides, more than 50% of eligible Catalan
: voters don't consider themselves
: "condemned to remain part of
: Spain." The separatists have yet to
: even gain a simple majority of 50% + 1 of
: the electorate's support.
: I know that more than 50% of catalan voters
: are against the independence.
: But are you sure how many of the catalan
: voters are true catalans ?
: In the 50s and 60s, when Catalonia had its
: great economic boom, people from all Spain,
: mainly from the poorer regions of Galicia,
: Extremadura and Andaluzia, moved to
: Catalonia and established there.
: Are those "foreigners" and
: "expats" that will have the right
: to tell the catalans how they would live ?
: Are there any serious census or polls
: showing the true number of
: "native" catalans and there sense
: of vote ?
: If galicians, extremeños and andaluzian do
: not feel comfortable living in an
: independent Catalonia, too bad for them.
: Either they adjust or move "home"
: to where they came from.
: I would not want a foreigner to dictate
: orders in my own house or my country.
: I feel that EU already intrudes too much in
: the lives of european countries bearing in
: mind that the EU is not a federation of
: I guess many american states have more
: autonomy than most european countries... who
: are not Germany or France and their closest
: Few secessions were peaceful.
: The Czech Republik and Slovakia come to mind
: as a honourable exception.
: Of course all constitutions maintain the
: unity of the country, which doesn't mean
: that a region, state or province may not
: aspire to its independence or in a lesse
: grade, more autonomy.
: But if the central state remains closed in
: its ivory tower surrounded by the
: constitution, dialogue may proove a bit
: Dialogue hasn't been a talking point for
: separatists for a while now. If it had been,
: then greater strides would have been made
: towards permitting a legal referendum,
: rather than declaring unilaterally that one
: would occur, knowing for a fact that it was
: in violation of the constitution.
: What Catalonia did these days, Portugal did
: the same in 1640 - I guess whe have a debt
: of gratitude towards Catalonia .
: When Catalonia rebelled against Madrid,
: Olivares send all troops staying in Portugal
: to fight the secessionists and it was easier
: for us to proclaim the independence.
: Times have changed. The role of the
: nation-state has changed. Despite the wishes
: of some of my fellow Texans that we secede
: from the US and re-establish the Republic of
: Texas, I and every other Texan who is able
: to separate my love for my state from my
: knowledge of constitutional law recognize
: that we're Americans and we're always going
: to be Americans.
: Of course, at the time, there was no
: constitution nor any famous article 155 that
: Madrid could invoke.
: But Portugal and Spain were at war (not very
: serious - a couple of battles every odd
: year) for 28 long years.
: Hope the declaration of independence will
: not produce such result.
: Doubtful, given that the separatists can't
: command a majority in their own would-be
: nation-state. It's hard to declare
: independence when less than 50 percent of
: your voting-eligible potential citizenry
: want to be independent.
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