Posted by Butch Cappel on 11/24/2005, 8:14 am, in reply to "Information Butch requested"
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Sorry Mark I didn't make my request clear. You stated certain breeds were used to create the Doberman, I asked for the source of that written material because I had found there were no records on the Dobe creation. YOUR, source states; "There are no records, only speculation, as to the dogs which went into the creation of the original Doberman," That would sort of be what I said originally, wouldn’t it? If this board doesn’t mind, and since the last thread about breed creation seemed to attract so much interest I thought I might try to add my very limited knowledge on the Dobe creation. I don’t do internet very well so I can’t give you a click and go answer, so bear with me if you would. We know that Dobermann was a city employee and dog catcher was one of his main duties. He was also a dog fancier and wanted to breed a dog that could be used as a protection dog by people that couldn’t handle the larger mastiffs that were used at that time. In recreating the origins of breeds, from the beginning of time until today, one of the tools we use is written records of the breeds in existence at that time, you gotta use what you got to use! Dobermann had access to, and probably used, Rotts, Black & Tan Terrier, smooth haired German Pinscher, and inclusion for temperament of the Great Dane ( a quite ferocious dog at the time) German Shepherd (Alsation) and Schnauzer. Temperamentally and physically this would match the goals Doberman was looking for. A small more easily handled breed of protection dog. You had the proven man stopping ability of the Rott, and other mastiffs, while bringing down the physical stature, by breeding in Terriers, without losing any of the courage needed for the type of work. As to the inclusion of the Weimaraner this is unlikely though many people think it is so. Because the “Weimar” was an established breed at the time, and because there are “blue” dobe genes, a few dog historians have advanced this theory, but! With closer study it is unlikely. Dobermann lived and worked in Apolda Germay. The Weimaraner was being redeveloped at this time in Weimar, Germany (remember most all breeds are named from the geographic area where they originated) Weimar, at that time would have been a three day journey from Apolda. Unlikely a city employee would have had the means or time to travel to get any of these dogs. (he theoretically used the dogs available from his dog pound) Also the Weimaraner at this time was undergoing a job change from a large game dog to the modern bird dog we know today. They were exclusively and jealously owned by the wealthier folks of Weimar and the possibility of any getting loose and wandering for three days to Dobermanns' dog pound seems a stretch. As to the color similarities? The Weimar got his color form a foundation breed the Schweisshund, which was red and brown. There was a color dilution of the gene ( called the Isabellismus factor) that caused the silver color. The same isabellismus factor probably occurred in the Black and Tan dogs used by Dobermann. Oh, I would point out one other thing, the Dobe is a great exception, the vast majority of breeds are made by jobs they had in certain areas. They were then refined to a specific standard. In other words the job made the breed, man just refined the looks. Look at our Airedale. Terriers were numerous on the rivers Colne, Caldre, Warte, and Aire. The Otterhound was also prolific and the combination was a versatile, working, dog. The name was assigned in 1879 which is why I used the date I did. Sorry to get so carried away and hope you made it through all this. Mark I don’t do the www but if you are interested in learning about dogs? I will be glad to reference my library anytime you need some facts. Don’t hesitate. Don hope I didn’t take up too much space.

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