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Posted by aallen "Even the bravest of us rarely has the courage for what he REALLY KNOWS."
on 2/17/2007, 4:09 pm, in reply to "Zarathustra, Prologue 2"
130.166.33.X
What Nietzsche was saying about that Christian hermit was that he, like "Christian love" in general, does not really love men but actually HATES them because of his own inadequacies. This hermit never loved anyone because he hates himself nor does he even love God. He ran away from the world because of his own self-contempt but his mind tells him it is the worlds fault. And he slanders mankind and tries to disourage Zarathustra: we always slander and discourage when we are jealous and bitter and it is our own fault--even if we have never admitted it to ourselves and thus are not really aware of it!
--Previous Message--
: I will return to the Thomas Common translation
: here because I suspect that the modernized
: version of it by "Paul Douglas".
: http://www.dsp.sun.ac.za/~jpool/misc/docs
: lacks credentials.
: ==========================
: Zarathustra went down the mountain alone,
: no one meeting him. When
: he entered the forest, however, there
: suddenly stood before him an old man, who
: had left his holy cot to seek roots. And
: thus spake the old man to Zarathustra:
: "No stranger to me is this wanderer:
: many years ago passed he by.
: Zarathustra he was called; but he hath
: altered.
: Then thou carriedst thine ashes into the
: mountains: wilt thou now
: carry thy fire into the valleys? Fearest
: thou not the incendiary's
: doom?
: Yea, I recognize Zarathustra. Pure is his
: eye, and no loathing
: lurketh about his mouth. Goeth he not along
: like a dancer?
: Altered is Zarathustra; a child hath
: Zarathustra become; an awakened one is
: Zarathustra: what wilt thou do in the land
: of the sleepers?
: As in the sea hast thou lived in solitude,
: and it hath borne thee
: up. Alas, wilt thou now go ashore? Alas,
: wilt thou again drag thy body thyself?"
: Zarathustra answered: "I love
: mankind."
: "Why," said the saint, "did
: I go into the forest and the desert? Was it
: not because I loved men far too well?
: Now I love God: men, I do not love. Man is
: a thing too imperfect for me. Love to man
: would be fatal to me."
: Zarathustra answered: "What spake I
: of love! I am bringing gifts
: unto men."
: "Give them nothing," said the
: saint. "Take rather part of their
: load, and carry it along with them- that
: will be most agreeable unto
: them: if only it be agreeable unto thee!
: If, however, thou wilt give unto them,
: give them no more than an
: alms, and let them also beg for it!"
: "No," replied Zarathustra,
: "I give no alms. I am not poor enough
: for that."
: The saint laughed at Zarathustra, and
: spake thus: "Then see to it
: that they accept thy treasures! They are
: distrustful of anchorites,
: and do not believe that we come with gifts.
: The fall of our footsteps ringeth too
: hollow through their
: streets. And just as at night, when they are
: in bed and hear a man
: abroad long before sunrise, so they ask
: themselves concerning us: Where goeth the
: thief?
: Go not to men, but stay in the forest! Go
: rather to the animals! Why not be like me- a
: bear amongst bears, a bird amongst
: birds?"
: "And what doeth the saint in the
: forest?" asked Zarathustra.
: The saint answered: "I make hymns and
: sing them; and in making hymns I laugh and
: weep and mumble: thus do I praise God.
: With singing, weeping, laughing, and
: mumbling do I praise the God
: who is my God. But what dost thou bring us
: as a gift?"
: When Zarathustra had heard these words, he
: bowed to the saint and
: said: "What should I have to give thee!
: Let me rather hurry hence lest I take aught
: away from thee!"- And thus they parted
: from one
: another, the old man and Zarathustra,
: laughing like schoolboys.
: When Zarathustra was alone, however, he
: said to his heart: "Could it be
: possible! This old saint in the forest hath
: not yet heard of it, that God is dead!"
: ============================
: I'm specially puzzled by the section on
: love: Zarathustra answered: "I love
: mankind."
: "Why," said the saint, "did
: I go into the forest and the desert? Was it
: not because I loved men far too well?
: Now I love God: men, I do not love. Man is
: a thing too imperfect for me. Love to man
: would be fatal to me."
: Zarathustra answered: "What spake I
: of love! I am bringing gifts
: unto men."
:
: First of all I think Common is wrong in
: translating `Ich liebe die Menschen' as: 'I
: love mankind': a Christian can love mankind
: abstractly through God, by I believe that
: Zarathustra's love will be for people in
: particular: the German is literally: "I
: love men".
: This passage makes me think of two theories
: of love, Plato's in the Symposium and
: Augustine's philosophical theory of
: Christian love. According to Augustine, we
: must love our neighbor always "in
: Deo", in God, never only for him or
: herself, but for God, to bring him or her
: closer to God, etc... otherwise it's
: idolatry. The old Christian hermit seems to
: have totally failed as a Christian, he loved
: men too well, too much probably, perhaps not
: "in Deo". And now he only loves
: God without loving men which is totally
: non-Christian, so I think that God is really
: dead to the hermit, although he has not
: realized it consciously. Maybe Nietzsche is
: implying that God is no longer an active
: force in our world for anybody. I am myself
: agnostic, but I still think that God is
: alive as a force, and idea, a belief to a
: minority of sincere Christians.
: As to Plato's love, eros in the Symposium,
: you begin by loving another (amorously) then
: loving ideas, finally the form of the Good
: itself. Zarathustra has been to the top,
: although he certainly does not believe in
: Plato's metaphysics, and is now climbing
: down into the cave, the world of daily life
: and illusion, and I think that when
: Zarathustra says he loves men, it is as
: eros, a life-force of desire, friendship,
: rather than Christian love, agapê.
: Thomas
:
:
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