Posted by sheridan on 5/29/2008, 11:03 pm, in reply to "How honorable would you say Conan and Red Sonja are?"
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Honor....a curious concept in REH's Conan. My short answer would be "not very."
REH has a great line, that I think implicates the issue of honor...sorta. It goes: "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."
Conan has an honor code, but it isn't quite like modern notions. One might call it a form of machismo blended with the traditional "honor among thieves" concept. One might also call it some form of Cimmerian "professionalism." It seems that when stealing/looting/raiding, he deals with his partners fairly. Of course, it's hard to call this outright "honorable." Being true to people who commit bad acts requires a type of honor, but it's not something that most would generally admire or find honorable.
By trade, Conan is a merc, rogue, and thief. The latter two, generally, are considered honorable-less, and for good reason. Hired arms, however, are more of a grey area. In Conan's case, it seems as though he's usually pushed into service, or does it simply because that's what he's doing at the time. Once bought or assigned to a task, he follows his work through.
There are other aspects of Conan's "honor" that seems to also fit into a grey category. For example, as you pointed out, if he's disrespected, he often attacks. Normally we don't think of this as a very honorable thing to do. It's more of a respect/pride thing, which has a certain logic to it. Is it honorable to seriously beat on a random stranger for mouthing off to you at a bar or on the street? No. Is it honorable to stand up for common politeness? Sure. Does some of this seem excessive by modern sensibilities? Certainly.
Justified or not, however, one gets the sense that Conan's actions appeal to readers because that's what many people wish they could do (smack a drunken dolt) except that the civilizations we live in have laws against it. But no, these aren't thinks we could probably consider "honorable" as a general rule. There are exceptions, however. There are numerous story lines where Conan attacks b/c someone is trying to force a woman to do something against her will, or is otherwise beating her. Such interventions are probably considered honorable as a general rule, though one has to wonder killing or dealing severe injuries is the right way to always go about it.
For the best reading I can think of on Conan's propensity to attack in these types of situations, there's a story early in the DH run where Conan cripples a youth for life b/c of some issue (I forget exactly what it was). The long and short of it is that the Cimmarians appear to respect what Conan did, if not implicitly approve of it, though it did end up ostracizing him from the clan for a bit.
I think you've got it right when you mention that writers usually portray Conan's foils as bad guys to begin with, and this, somehow, leads the reader to feel that Conan's actions are justified. I can't recall a Conan story where he ends up realizing that he's killed the wrong guy, looted the wrong person, etc. It's always the case the the reader knows (or suspects) the foil is up to no good. There are stories, however, where Conan fights one group, only to find out that his employer is really the bad guy and he goes back after him. Of course, no mention is made of the poor guards he dispatched while in the former's employ. As well, when Conan arcs start off with the typical “Conan is off to steal the gem of such-and-such,” there usually isn’t much discourse about why stealing is a bad thing.
Rounding out these complexities is the fact that Conan saves the universe from evil what-have-you's all the time. It's hard to argue that the world's unwitting savior is an honorable-less guy. Maybe the best way to say it is that Conan is written, to a certain extent, to be "beyond" honor, or, at the very least, honor is glossed in favor of the plot.
Red Sonja is a bit different, but falls under the general umbrella of "not really." She has a few plusses that probably give her a "more honorable than Conan" badge.
Typically, the honor she's defending is her own's or that of the disenfranchised. RS tends to help the needy a bit more than Conan, and the young girls she helps she doesn't end up sleeping with them as Conan often does. Not that there's anything wrong w/ adults doing their thing, but it seems a bit more “honorable” not to have that happen, even if that wasn't the initial motive for intervening in the first place.
No doubt this raises a host of issues about why the leading man always gets the girl...and what does this say about our notions of gender, etc. RS has the exact opposite situation: the man never gets the girl (and she never the man), and often the man gets killed for trying. Let’s not delved too deeply into that. Let it suffice to say that while not directly addressed in Conan, one might argue that the intimacy was forced or coerced out of a notion of debt or servitude (as opposed, generally, to free will under normal circumstances). Accordingly, RS appears more "honorable" in that regard.
RS tends to have bar brawl situations like Conan, but often when someone's making unwanted advances and won't stop. Again, the issue of excessive force comes into play, but it's hard to argue that someone shouldn't be able to use high levels of force to prevent from being physically/sexually assaulted by dangerous, brawny men (often in groups).
There's a story in the Dynamite run where a bar owner's wife "assumes" the role of Red Sonja, and ends up killing a bunch of people. I was quite troubled by the issue, but it wasn't RS so I'll leave the point alone for now. If you'd like, I can cross check which one that was...
RS also has a "divine" influence built into the story line that Conan doesn't. Her goddess, at least up until recently, was seen as a "good" god. There is some presumption that b/c she has this divine blessing, she must be doing the right thing, generally, even if thieving.
Notably, however, RS has less of an honor among thieves code than Conan. She double trick's Conan in multiple stories after they steal something.
For good reading on the morality of RS, try the latest couple of issues from Dynamite. They deal with RS's history, and are directly on point regarding whether she's lived a "good" life. Of course, this isn't quite topical to the issue of honor, but it's worth a read.
Hope that helps.
--Previous Message--
: I know that their idea of "honor"
: would not be the same as ours. Conan is
: known for barbarian type behavior such as
: theivery, womanizing, and killing pretty
: much anything that annoys him. At the same
: time he has always been called more of an
: anti-heor than villain. I take that to mean
: that if he steals from someone they are
: probable not a nice person to begin with.
: Does not engage in wholesale slaughter on
: farming peasents just for the fun of it.
: And honors a deal with someone as long as
: they don't try and back stab him. He might
: even go out of his way to help some poor
: smuck who is down on his luck.
:
: Am I right in thinking around these lines?
:
: What about Red Sonja?
:
: Also, does anybody know of any good
: collection of stories of each of them one
: should get started on?
:
: thanks
:
:
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