Posted by Jock on 10/24/2009, 14:19:35

I wonder if people could suggest some types of long keel small sailing craft? I am not fond of centerboards (was bitten by one in my youth) and have been on the lookout for a trailerable long keel boat like the 12 1/2 foot waterline Bullseyes of Cape Cod. Cf. http://www.bullseyeclass.org/ Those are mostly for racing rather than camp-cruising, and I would prefer two sails for versatility, shorter spars for trailering, and ease of single-handing. Any ideas?

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Posted by Dave Laux on 10/25/2009, 4:57:52, in reply to "long keels"

There are not many boats as you describe because of issues with leeway. also trailering is much more difficult. You might look at longboat type designs but be prepared to not go to windward real well. How did you get this aversion to centerboards. If you can figure out how to resolve that it might go a long way toward making your quest easier. Phillip Bolger designed a couple of shallow keel boats as you are looking for and there is the Swallows and Amazons group that has, I think, a design for a Swallow build that is as you describe. Dave

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Posted by Jock on 10/25/2009, 7:49:07, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Dave--Thanks for the suggestion, especially the Swallow & Amazon group. They have helpful links. As to why? --Centerboards are useful, even indispensable on shoal waters like the Chesapeake Bay where the interesting creeks and rivers average 3' deep. In racing one can pivot around a centerboard in tacking and raise it on downwind legs. But--I am a cruiser, not a racer. The centerboard box takes up all the middle of a small boat, radically reducing cargo/ sleeping area. The box is the weakest part of the hull subject to levered sheering forces in grounding (a metal centerboard will bend which is serious trouble) and impossible to maintain or paint the interior without dismantling it, so they are prone to rot and to leaks. Chappelle in History of American Sailing Ships, says centerboards were a 19th century invention first tried by the British Admiralty but "all these vessels gave trouble, becoming leaky around the case . . ." Centerboards nontheless become standard in American yacht design because racing took over as a design goal. Chapelle says the artifices of racing like measurement rules and triangular courses--no pilotboat or fisherman sailed to windward a third of the time on purpose--has skewed sailing vessel design, to the point that some are so unstable as to have "dangerous characteristics." He calls "an unhealthy type of yacht" the "shoal centerboarder." A long keel will track so you can balance the sails and even leave the helm to attend to something. Centerboards tend to create weather helm and what's worse, if the weight or sail plan shifts, lee helm which is dangerous; deadly if you fall overboard and the boat sails away from you. A long keel is slower to be sure, more difficult to bring through the wind, but far more stable. As a cruising sailor I would rather enjoy the trip and dependably get where I am going, than sit on the titling rail getting wet for the cheap thrill of speed. Well. You did ask. I won't bore you with the story of my youthful encounter with a centerboard which soured me on them forever.

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Posted by Larry Yake on 10/25/2009, 19:44:02, in reply to "long keels"

Have you considered the Herreshoff 12 1/2?

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Posted by Don Boyko on 10/26/2009, 1:30:38, in reply to "Re: long keels"

I belive the Capri-18 has a fairly long airfoil shape keel, (in relationship to total length, probably close to 5'), and with the wing, it keeps the water flow over the keel. Pointing and tracking are extremely good and only draws 2 1/2' so launching is not a big problem Don

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Posted by Jock on 10/26/2009, 5:25:41, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Thanks for the suggestion. The Capri 18 has a fin keel judging from this photo of one for sale in Texas. http://catalina18.net/images/Capri%2018%20Front.jpg That has the advantage of putting ballast outside and far down, but a fin keel is awkwardly deep (again, a leftover from racing design decisions of yesteryear). I would prefer a simple long keel like on an 18th Century pilot boat.

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Posted by PS-from Jock on 10/26/2009, 5:31:16, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Here is a very good discussion of keel types published some time ago in GoodOldBoat by boat designer Ted Brewer. http://www.goodoldboat.com/reader_services/articles/keeldesign.php

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Posted by Curtis on 10/26/2009, 13:01:51, in reply to "long keels"

What about a Nordica 16? A little cramped inside, but it's a salty double-ender with a full keel. http://www.nordicaboats.com/html/nordica-16.html

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Posted by Jock on 10/26/2009, 14:00:05, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Thanks Curtis that is exactly the sort of vessel I am looking for. The Internet informs me it was originally based on old North Sea vessels, a Danish design exported to Canada and Australia. That confirms the theory that I may have to look to Europe to find long keel small craft, since US design is dominated by centerboards, daggerboards, leeboards or fin keels.

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Posted by spencer on 10/26/2009, 18:16:04, in reply to "Re: long keels--Nortica 16"

Not really long keels, but don't overlook a twin keeler like the Alacrity or Vivacity. They are not as hard to load on a trailer as some folks put on. And with out any moving parts you don't have to worry about getting "bit" by the center board. We have had one for several years that we have actually owned twice. While I might be guilty of looking at other boats like the Monty's or Compac's I have not found another boat that gives the same bang for the buck in a trailerable. Now having said that if anyone knows of a Hirondelle 23 Catamaran for sale let me know.... I might just be interested.

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Posted by dave scobie on 10/26/2009, 21:25:50, in reply to "long keels"

you speak of centerboard taking space in a small boat ... not in the montgomery 15, 17 (and my guess is the 16 when she becomes available). the skeg keel on the 15 and 17 is long and the ballast fills this 'keel'. the older 17s have a cast iron centerboard. the new 17s and 15s share the same centerboard (the new 17s have more ballast in the 'keel' as the centerboard is only about 50# vs. the older 17s 200+# of cast iron). the 15 and 17 retain their stability centerboard up or down as the weight remains below the waterline. there are SCA reviews for the m15 (SCA #29) and m17(SCA #7) there is also the sparrow 16. SCA did a review of the boat - http://smallcraftadvisor.com/store/product.php?productid=59&cat=17&page=1 i've been on a sparrow. nice little craft that in many ways is like a m17 without the centerboard. this results in the expected performance hit going to the wind. fit-and-finish is not to montgomery standards, but the price reflects this difference ... if one can be found (less sparrows available than m17s or m15s). dave scobie M17 #375 - SWEET PEA former M15 owner

Link: visit SWEET PEA's www-site

Posted by Former Typhoon sailor on 10/26/2009, 22:33:19, in reply to "long keels"

Cape Dory Typhoon. At 18'6" may be too big for you but it is trailerable, has a long keel and is a truly fine sailing boat. There are many for sale ranging anywhere from $1,500-$8,000. Allot of boat for the length.

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Posted by Dave Laux on 10/28/2009, 4:46:28, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Most of the characteristics that you mention can apply to any boat independent of keel/lateral plane type. Modern construction has pretty well eliminated any disadvantage from the maintinence point of veiw of centerboard dagger board truncks. Balance is much more controlable with movable fins of some sort. Howards comments apply to big boat/ships problems, they are unlikely to occur on small boats. H was a good friend before his death and I still use drafting ducks that he gave me. All in all I would be very reluctant to give up all the advantages of movable fins on my boats. I was sailing on Sunday on our local river and it would not have been nearly as nice without the adjustability of lateral plane that the centerboard on the boat I was sailing allowed. Not to mention 10 min from trailer to water or back on the trailer made the trip possible to start with. The fact that the boat and trailer weigh just over 600 lbs and yet it was comfortable for 4 adults to lay around in did not hurt in makeing the trip either. Dave

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Posted by Dave Combs on 10/28/2009, 10:04:38, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Jock, I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned but the Victoria 18 is a nice boat. Might also consider a Sea Pearl 21 with lee boards. Dave

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Posted by Jock on 10/31/2009, 10:46:04, in reply to "Re: long keels"

Thanks for all the helpful responses. Just came across this information on how one large centerboard vessel, the Ventura, handled the problem of marine growth in its centerboard case: "sail to the Old Mr Boston distillery nearby, fill the box from a large barrel of rot gut gin, and shake, via the motion of the ocean. The process took a while . . . with the crew dutifully involved with the mixology."

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Posted by Dave Laux on 11/2/2009, 7:45:42, in reply to "a cure for centerboard woes"

For what its worth Jock. There really are no centerboard woes on the scale that we use them. I have owned several centerboards and dagger boards and have had no trouble with any of them. Dave

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