Posted by Kieran Frost on 5/12/2009, 10:34 am, in reply to "Re: Great response!"
91.108.101.98
I don't want Carol or Karla to be preachy about being feminists, but definitely show more of an attitude to their remarkable and to have those around them acknowledge it since both women are usually surrounded by mostly men.
So next time Karla successfully saves the day someone should say “Good job, that was really impressive, especially considering you’re a woman!” or say “Great job, I wish more superheroes were women, since clearly you do it as good as any man.” Or if Karla, while working with the Dark Avengers, comments on her being the only woman; should Osborn turn round and tell her she’s just as valuable to the team as any man; and that she shouldn’t take the fact she is the only woman as a sign women are not valued by equally the Dark Avengers. COME ON! If ever someone comments about Karla’s impressive skill as a superhero; with any meaning towards highlighting the fact she is a woman, that sends the message that generally women don’t make good superheroes; and she should be praised for not being utterly useless. Or by giving her special treatment because she is a female superhero, you are sending the message that
a) women can’t just be a superhero, just save the day, they must be examples, they must be fighting for women’s rights and feminism
b) the only reason to have a female superhero is to send a message. Ergo if you don’t want to send a message, or make a point about feminism, there’s no point have a female superhero around.
c) special treatment ISN’T equality. That is positive discrimination, which is wrong.
There is no possible way to comment on something like this without being preachy. Can you to give an example of how this can be accomplished, that doesn’t come off as a magic moments?
It's more of the feel of the book, not a direct speech, or subversive lecture that will educate readers.
Surely Karla being a female solo comic book hero is all the ‘subversive lecture’ someone needs, if they indeed need one? I mean, other than being a great superhero who is female; what more unspoken message can be sent, without being preachy What better example is there to young people than a superhero who doesn't make her life about her gender, but instead about her as a person. She is an example to everyone, about how to lead a good life. Just being a woman shouldn't impress anyone. She's a woman, so what? Is that really the deepest thing we can discuss when thinking of Karla?
[ref. IT’S A COMIC. This is not the place to toot “Girl Power” or make a stand (at least not anymore, in a Western world embracing equality).] Thank God writers like Lee, Claremont, Wolfman, Byrne, and Moulton-Marston didn't believe this years ago or we would never have had the X-Men, Spider-Man, the New Teen Titans, or Wonder Woman (to name just a few). These characters became involved with stories that talked about equality, being different than the norm, growing up, and the harsh realities of life.
Yes, but that was then, and this is now; and I was only referencing nowadays. Nowadays almost all comic readers are most likely fully aware and supportive of female equality. Nowadays comic readers don’t need to be lectured on girl power; because they already know about it. I fully agree that, back when the comics were first made, they needed to talk about these things. But that was 40 years ago. Surely you acknowledge things changed in 40 years? Surely you agree the Western world has a much, much better attitude to women in all regards that they did 40 years ago?
[ref. Especially in today culture, where women are equal to men] Unfortunately, this is incorrect, not just here in the United States, but all over the world. While is some ways the equality of the sexes has improved, women are not always equal in several regards.
Don’t make me laugh! 
There is equality, we are in an equal society (Western World), and I think it is ridiculous to pretend otherwise (this is all in regards to women’s equality, I fully appreciate there are inequality in regards sexual orientation; and sometimes in regards to race as well). How is the United States or Great Britain unequal in regards to women? I agree Muslim countries and many eastern countries or African countries could improve their attitude to women. I agree that many religious organisations have some unequal attitudes. But I do not think the majority of the society of the Western World has anything but equality in their hearts when thinking of women or vice-versa.
I would even argue we are not just an equal society, but it’s getting dangerous to the point of become positive discrimination society, which is by definition, unequal! A example of society’s bad choice in positive discrimination: lowering the carrying weight for women in England to become fire-fighters. If you can’t carry the weight, you shouldn’t get the job! Period. Fire fighters are required to be able to carry a certain weight, to carry someone out of a burning building. It has nothing to do with gender, it has to do with the requirements of the job. If a man can’t carry the weight, he doesn’t get the job and if a woman can carry the weight, she does get the job. Gender isn’t the issue, it’s physical strength that matters here. Do men, by nature, often have greater physical strength: yes. Can women work out and become just as strong: yes! So why lower the weight requirement? By lowering the standards, you are saying women are not equal, and that they need a leg up. That is NOT equality!
[ref. she must just “be” and fight crime and save the day and look superhero fabulous] Being a superheroine is another form of celebrity separate from actors, musicians, and politicians. Women, men, girls, and boys draw inspiration, confidence, and joy from celebrities. Ms. Marvel is not excluded because she is "just" a superhero. Why would Carol have gotten a publicist in issue #1 if this was the case?
Okay
a) she is a superhero, not a superheroine. By highlighting gender, you are saying gender matters. It doesn’t; and saying so damages the very thing you fight for. Hero does not necessarily mean man, the same way feminist doesn’t necessarily mean woman. Would you call yourself a manfeminist, by that logic?
b) surely the very existence of Ms. Marvel is enough for anyone who seeks such a shallow inspiration? I’m gay, but I won’t suddenly feel more “alive” if there is a gay solo comic. And if Marvel make Colossus or Atlas gay and give them a solo comic, I won’t read it; because I don’t like the characters. I read Ms. Marvel because I like the character, not because she’s a woman. I greatly dislike the notion people are so base and depthless that things like gender, race and sexual orientation effect their enjoyment of a comic book character.
c) Marvel advertises all new comics. I fail to see how Ms. Marvel #1 was only advertised because she was a woman, when the Thunderbolts #1 had advertisements crammed in all the comics as well. Did they only do it to send a pro-villains message 
d) I have to be honest, I don’t like you keep putting women, men, girls, boys (you did it in another post too). If we go alphabetically, it’s men and women, boys and girls. If we go by the standard phrasing, it’s men and women, boys and girls. That’s just how the phrasing has existed, it’s not a sexist thing. BUT by putting women and men, you are saying the order matters, that order is important, and by putting women second, means they are “less than”. So, surely reversing it is not only saying “order matters” you are saying “and women should be first.” Hardly, equality, is it?
One way to do this is to show a greater interest in the few female characters with their solo books and prove that women are just as great (and in some ways greater) as men.
I don’t approve of the “and in some ways greater” and it’s connotations. That smells dangerously of positive discrimination, which is wrong in every way. Can Ms. Marvel be a better superhero than some male ones: yes. Can they be better than her as well: yes. Do you really want to go down that path?
My hope is that Marvel Comics will take a stand and use the format of a Ms. Marvel book and help promote a more positive image of feminism.
Personally I’d love for Karla to announce herself as an anti-feminist; but that’s just me Truthfully, I don’t want her to declare either way. The comic should not be about her gender, but her as a superhero. This is a comic, not a soap box. I sincerely, sincerely, sincerely hope Marvel doesn’t make this comic about feminism. I’ll drop the book if it does.
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