Posted by Lorenzo
on 13/10/2009, 16:39:30, in reply to "Re: Luis Alfonso: Duke of Franco?"
82.106.247.152
A question to the experts about the Bourbon-Orléans dynastic dispute.
The main point, as I understand, is the validity of the reounciation of the Spanish branch to their rights over the French throne, that was motivated by the need to avoid any possibility that the two countires fall under the same ruler.
Provided that the Spanish crown remains stable over the next centuries, what I strongly wish, in three generations the crown should exit from the Bourbon family and pass into another "X" family, e.i. the descendants of the husband of Infanta Leonor.
They will be of course legally surnamed "de Borbon y X" in Spain, but from a non-Spanish dynastic point of view they will NOT be members of the European historical House of Bourbon.
Should this likely scenary happen (unless Infanta Leonor marries some Bourbon cousin, as Queen Isabel did!), will this change the position of the Duke of Anjou (or his male heirs by then, if any) towards the French succession, provided that the Spanish crown will never again fall into the hands of a "real" Bourbon?
--Previous Message--
: That's what I said. He will never use titles
: he consider inferior to the Dukedom of
: Anjou.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: Titles of nobiliy are recognised in France,
: of
: course, by a legal procedure which has been
: in practice for centuries - and continued
: undert the 3rds, 4th and 5th republics.
:
: Since the charter of 1814 the nobility has
: ceased to be a privileged class.
:
: There is a difference between a title of
: nobility and a title of pretension (Duke of
: Anjou, Count of Paris, Duke of Calabria,
: Markgraf of Meissen, etc) which are titles
: used by heads of non-reigning royal houses.
: Thed titles of Count of Paris and duke of
: Anjou (and Prince Napoleon) are given
: courtesy recognition by the French state,
: not as noble titles but as attributes of the
: representatives of families that once
: reigned in France.
:
: Thus there is no comparison between a title
: of nobility (Duke of Franco) and title of
: pretensions (Duke of Anjou), one does not
: trump the other. The Count of Paris under
: French nobiliary law is Duke of Orleans,
: Chartres, Valois, Montpensier, etc, but does
: not use any of those titles. The Infante don
: Carlos whose title of pretension is duke of
: Calabria is also Count of Caserta, a Two
: Sicilies noble title. the former title,
: however, is used because it signifies his
: headship of the Royal House.
:
: The Markgraf of Meissen uses this title
: because it is more ancient than the royal
: Saxon titles, even though theoretically the
: title of Markgraf is lower than that of King
: or Crown Prince.
:
: Whatever title Louis-Alphonse succeeds to in
: Spain I am sure he will continue to be known
: as duke of Anjou not simply by his followers
: butalso by French official bodies. Of course
: he will never be King, but then nor will the
: Count of Paris (and Prince Napoleon will
: never be Emperor) but each of them represent
: sovereigns who once ruled France and thus
: have an important place as representative
: sof historic traditions.
:
: --Previous Message--
: Actually, the Dukedom of Franco is a more
: prominent title, a Grandee of Spain, while
: the Dukedom of Anjou is a title recognised
: in LA's French papers, but not a legal
: title. I mean, there is no nobility in
: France.
: And Franco is not a name to be linked to in
: the XXI century. Villaverde, in this sense,
: is more "neutral", let's say.
: Anyway, I doubt LA would use any of the
: titles, since he considers he is entitled to
: higher titles, ie, royal ones. Why being
: Marques of Villaverde, or Duke of Franco,
: when he thinks he is "HRH the Duke of
: Anjou"?
:
: --Previous Message--
: That remark, that her son would never become
: King of France showed a sense of realism
: indeed. Beside the unlikely event of the
: French Republic becoming a monarchy again,
: in my opinion the claims of Louis-Alphonse
: de Bourbon are weak because of the
: international treaties which separated the
: House of Bourbon in a French and a Spanish
: branch and whic blocks the throne of France
: for the Spanish branch.
:
: Supporters of Louis-Alphonse will fight the
: legitimity of these Treaties but that is an
: already lost battle.
:
: If I understand your post correctly, Don
: Luis-Alfonso will become Marques de
: Villaverde and his uncle Don Francisco will
: become Duque de Franco?
:
: Maybe this settlement was done because Don
: Luis-Alfonso already is Duc d'Anjou and the
: Dukedom of Franco would be 'snowed under' by
: the more historic and prominent title of
: Anjou.
:
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