Posted by Eleonore on 9/11/2011, 13:53:52, in reply to "Re: equal treatment"
User logged in as Eleonore
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I agree with you up to a point Guy that for male consorts it will probably more difficult to carve a royal role or themselves than for women.
This was especially so in the previous generations. But you have to keep in mind that not only times are changing, people are changing now as well.
The former (male) minister of Finance, Wouter Bos, is now a partner at KPMG and he works four days per week (and is able to maintain this for the most part). Ten years ago, this would be unthinkable.
And apart from the changing times, you have to keep in mind the individuals we are talking about, their personalities, their backgrounds, the culture they grew up in etc. That all played a role in how they perceive (or have perceived) their role.
F.e. the Dutch prince Claus; a highly intelligent man, raised in a German culture where men were supposed to be the head of the family. He furthermore did not know exactly what he could expect from his life as royal consort: he is on record saying that prior to the wedding he thought that he and Beatrix would be stationed at some Dutch embassy somewhere in his beloved Africa. The truth was different and that must have been a shock for him.
And in his new role, his intelligence worked very much against him; he was gagged by the Dutch government, especially after Lockheed, and such a position is not easy for a man who had his own career.
As for new royal ladies not having a career, or not pursuing a career, I think that a previous career has been a great help for several of the royal women (think Maxima and micro-credit) to pick a field of interest once they settled in their royal role.
Anyway, it is my opinion that the future roles of male royal spouses (and there will be more than a few in say 40 years) will work out itself. Prince-Consorts in 40 years will have a lot of examples to learn from and in 40 years societies will be a lot different from now. And that too will affect societies expectations for royal men (the in-laws).
--Previous Message--
: Nice in theory but not in practice.
:
: Do you really believe the public would
: accept a prince consort who trailed behind
: his wife while the press got hugely excited
: about his fashion sense? Or looked after
: their babies while she went off to public
: events?
:
: Equally do you believe that a prince consort
: who did pursue his existing career could do
: so without it reflecting on his wife -
: perhaps as head of an investment bank that
: was dealing in sub-prime mortgages or
: betting against the national currency, or
: perhaps as a lawyer who was directly
: challenging the government of the day, or as
: an industrialist whose company was found to
: have broken some regulations?
:
: Or perhaps an employee of a big company who
: was suddenly promoted to the board and was
: then accused of being promoted because of
: his position.
:
: None of the female spouses of any of the
: present heirs to European thrones have any
: kind of meaningful occupation other than
: "supporting their spouse" and
: looking elegant, and of course supporting
: various charities.
:
: The criticism already meted out to the Crown
: princess of Sweden' spouse has made it clear
: that even in tolerant Sweden, the public
: thinks that running a gym is not an
: occupation worthy of the husband of the
: future Queen. Can you imagine the public
: reaction if, say, the Duchess of Cambridge
: was pursuing a career as a personal trainer?
:
: I know perfectly well that is the
: politically correct view to maintain that
: there is no and should be no perceivable
: difference between the expectations of men
: and women. However this is not only proved
: to be fallacious by the evidence of an
: overwhelming majority of women who
: consistently retire from the jobs market
: earlier than men, but more to the point here
: is the fact that nowhere is it expected that
: the a future queen consort should be out in
: the jobs market trying to make an
: independent career. Do you believe the
: Princess of Asturias could have continued
: her career as a TV journalist? Of course
: not, it woudl have been unacceptable. But i
: due course her daughter may become Queen and
: it will be equally unlikely that her husband
: could be a reporter on the TV or run a
: company, or do anything other than pursue a
: military career.
:
: Or simply stay at home and live off the
: state benefits that royal families receive.
: How would the public respond to that?
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: I think your fear is unfounded. Most
: European
: nations are seeing the roles of men and
: women less preset by gender and more fluid.
: Men who raise their children while the
: mother is the main breadwinner are still a
: minority, but they are growing in numbers.
: Many women are now earn as much as their
: husband and with more girls graduating from
: higher education than boys that trend will
: continue.
: The male consorts of the 20th century had
: the thoughest time. They had to find a way
: to maintain their masculinity without
: overpowering their reigning spouse. These
: days roles are different.
: As for France i think they would be
: seriously considering to accept gender
: neutral succession if they had not
: introduced it allready if the monarchy had
: still existed.
: In Germany that would certainly have been
: the case.
:
: --Previous Message--
: If France had returned to a monarchy in 1873
: it might well have had another revolution in
: 1905. But if it had survived, I rather doubt
: there would be a change. French law on names
: is still very strict.
:
: The great difficulty in the role of Queen's
: regnant in the future is their choice of
: husband. The role of the wives of the heirs
: to Norway, the UK, Netherlands, and Belgium
: is so much easier than that of the husband
: of the Crown princess of Sweden.
:
: We may consider that we have progressed, but
: a man is still expected to work and have
: some kind of career. For the duke of
: Edinburgh as a naval officer it was a very
: clear role and it becamse easy for him to
: take up various public positions and star
: his own charities.
:
: But the Swedish public has already shown a
: certain intolerance towards the activities
: of the husband of the crown princess -
: running a gym is not really the job one
: would expect the husband of the head of
: state to do. if the husband of a future
: Queen is a lawyer, banker or runs any kind
: of business it would be only too easy for
: him to find that he is getting work because
: of who he is rather than his skills and then
: be accused of taking advantage of his
: position. This was the accusation thrown at
: the late Sir Angus Ogilvy, husband of
: Princess Alexandra (of the UK); The Princess
: Royal's husband is a senior naval officer
: but if he had a career in business he and
: his company would be constantly scrutinised.
:
: It is useless to compare the positions of
: past or present sovereigns without noting
: the enormous difficulties faced by the
: husbands of the present and late Queens of
: the Netherlands - Prince Bernhard involved
: in a sordid business scandal and the late
: husband of Queen Beatrix suffering terribly
: from the difficulties of his position.
:
: The Prince Consort of Denmark has had to be
: "protected" several times and I
: doubt very much that a future prince consort
: of any European monarchy would manage to
: escape such scrutiny.
:
: I see the role of the husband of the
: sovereign as by far the greatest challenge
: and potentially de-stabilising factor for
: the European monarchies of the future.
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: I do agree that if there ever was a
: restoration in France and Germany there
: probably would be equal succession but I do
: have to wonder if France had remained a
: monarchy all this time if they would be too
: resistant?
:
: --Previous Message--
: If the monarchy were ever returned in France
: and Germany, I beleive they would do it on
: the concept of equal treatment of males and
: females.
: Step by step all monarchies change to this
: concept.
:
: --Previous Message--
: That is what I was thinking. France was
: involved in a huge war in order to prevent
: passage through the female line I have a
: hard time thinking they would embrace equal
: succession.
:
: --Previous Message--
: --Previous Message--
: I tend to agree. The French monarchy seem to
: have had the strongest adherence to the
: Salic tradition.
:
: Well, they once fought a hundred years war
: with the English in order to defend it. If a
: modern French monarchy were to abolish it, I
: suspect the ghosts of Edward III and Henry V
: would appreciate the irony!
:
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