Posted by Johan on 31/3/2011, 16:01:43, in reply to "Re: Duchies and dukedoms"
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Well neither is the Queen of the UK for the thrones she occupies but that doesn't change her situation and neither does it make a German bachelor King 
.
--Previous Message--
: I never said that they did not descend from
: the Dukes of Brabant. They are hardly their
: genealogical heirs though.
:
: --Previous Message--
: The Belgian kings do descent from the old
: Dukes of Brabant as a result of their smart
: marriage policies. Louise-Marie d'Orléans
: was related to the French Capetians, the
: Spanish Borbons and the house of
: Habsburg-Lorraine. Queen Elisabeth was a
: Wittelsbach with various lines linking her
: to the medieval Dukes as well. The Duchy
: remained in tact until the French
: revolution. Than was broken up in
: departments as part of Imperial France.
: Returned as a province in the Kingdom of the
: Netherlands and later as the centre of the
: newly created Kingdom of the Belgians. Soon
: afterwards the title was introduced for the
: Heir and count of Flanders for his brother.
:
: --Previous Message--
: A dukedom is simply a title of nobility with
: no territory associated. For instance,
: whenever a duke is/was created in the United
: Kingdom, it was a dukedom. There are no
: duchies (lands ruled directly by a duke) in
: the UK called Marlborough, Lennox, etc.
: There are dukedoms (titles) of such names
: though.
:
: Duchies are/were places like Nassau,
: Saxe-Coburg and Gotha, Brunswick, etc. These
: were places ruled by dukes with those
: territorial designations.
:
: The Queen of the Netherlands has the title
: of Duchess of Limburg because the kings
: preceding her were, at one point, sovereign
: dukes of Limburg. The same way that the
: kings preceding Juan Carlos were sovereign
: dukes of Brabant.
:
: There is no conceivable way, however, that
: the kings of Belgium are heirs of the old
: Dukes of Brabant except that they are
: monarchs of a newly created state
: encompassing part of the same territory. The
: Belgian Duke of Brabant is not heir to the
: old Duchy of Brabant.
:
: That isn't to say I think he should not use
: that title. I do, however, think it would be
: wrong to say the King of Spain, or anyone
: for that matter with a genealogical claim,
: could not use that title because a Belgian
: prince has it.
:
: --Previous Message--
: The distinction between duchy and dukedom is
: lost on me. Im sorry there seems to be a
: difference in the English language that my
: native Dutch doesn't have.
: The Dutch sovereign has among her titles
: Duchess of Limburg while only part of that
: duchy is in the Netherlands (either west or
: east but im always confused about that one)
: the other half is in Belgium.
: Real duchies no longer exist in the Low
: countries or in France for that matter. The
: area's have been divided up in other forms
: (provinces or departments). Those political
: entities however don't exclude the old
: regions still having their own distinction.
:
: --Previous Message--
: There is a difference between a duchy and a
: dukedom. A duchy is a territory with a duke
: as sovereign . If they heir to the Belgian
: throne ruled the duchy of Brabant he would
: be sovereign over parts of the
: Netherlands...
:
: A dukedom is simply a ducal title. Like
: Edinburgh (no duchy of Edinburgh) in the UK.
:
: I personally do not know if Luxembourg
: ceased to exist as a duchy and was later
: refounded as a grand duchy or if it was
: extant as a duchy and simply upgraded
: (continuity).
:
: --Previous Message--
: It still exists as a duchy as it's THE title
: to refer to the Heir of the Belgian throne.
: You would not call Luxembourg a non-existant
: grand duchy even though a major part of it
: nowadays is in Belgium and not part of the
: country Luxembourg.
:
: --Previous Message--
: Please note I said Brabant as a duchy ! Its
: historical territory also straddles two
: countries...
:
: --Previous Message--
: I beg to differ. Brabant still very much
: exists as a region. Even those in the north
: are aware of their link with area's across
: the national border. People refer to
: themselves as Brabants and there are all
: sorts of traditions alive and well in the
: region.
:
: --Previous Message--
: More "controversial" would be the
: title of Duke of Bravant, used presently by
: the heir of Belgium.
:
: Although the historic Duchy of Brabant
: straddles the current Kingdoms of Belgium
: and the Netherlands is the Belgian Royal
: Family truly seen as a successor to Brabant
: anyway? Brabant as a duchy ceased to exist
: to exist before Belgium as a country was
: even created.
:
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