Posted by Guy Stair Sainty
on 26/10/2009, 9:48:44, in reply to "Re: Papal Princes"
83.154.61.193
This is wrng in so many ways that there is not enough space to correct it. However, there are several points that should be made.
First regarding Papal titles - before 1870 Papal titles were all "territorial", with the exception of the rather strange Papal title of Conte Palatino (which gave the holder the title of Count followed by his family name). The Pope's did not before 1870 grant Princely titles on the name - so all those families listed here who had Princely titles were Princes of somewhere.
After 1870 there were grants of titles of Prince, duke, (a few Marquesses) and Count, but these were on the name "Duke Stacpoole, "Countess Kennedy"; etc, most were hereditary, a few not; all however could only pass to the issue born of legitimate, Catholic marriages.
Each of former Italian states had their own nobiliary systems which the Savoys tried to rationalise. There were two "Lists" (Elenchi),called the "Elenco Ufficiale della Nobilta Italiana" which attempted to compile complete lists of all recognised titles - however one had to apply and some families linked closely to formerly ruling houses refused to do so.
As a general principle all titles followed the original patent - as most of nothern Italy was part of the HRE, naturally the Imperial titles followed the patent and passes to all male line descendants if these was the terms of the original patent. Most Austrian titles, granted by the Viceroy of Milan in the name of the Emperor after 1815, or by the Emperor directly, were also recognised when granted prior to 1866.
All Papal titles were recgnised in Italy - although this did require an administrative process for the recipient to be included on the Elenco - by the terms of the Lateran Treaty of 1929, which theoretically continued to bind the Republic after 1946.
Territorial titles granted with the remainder to males and females, with priority for males, after 1860 were only recgnised for females by specific royal confirmation, despite the original patents. Some of these titles, when granted by the Spanish Viceroys, are considered Spanish titles and these wuld be recognised in Spain according to the original patent - thus sometimes creating tw titles out of ne (the title of Duke of Ferrandina is one such example).
--Previous Message--
:
:
: one of customs of Italian nobility has been
: that IF the House (the head) holds several
: princely and/or ducal titles (something they
: usually do, at least in older houses), then
: his younger sons and brothers may enjoy the
: courtesy honorific of duke or prince
: (however usually without name of a specified
: dukedom or princedom; rather as honorific
: and with their usual surname), this is
: technically thought to be based on a
: temporary family division of titularies and
: 'rights'.
:
: Then, another matter is those houses whose
: some title comes from the Holy Roman Empire.
: As is with the HRE titles, such title and
: rank belongs rightfully to all agnates -
: which is somewhat contrary to Italian
: (southern) customs where primogeniture is
: emphasized with titles. However, those HRE
: titles could be used also by younger sons,
: brothers, and all agnates.
: There are entire houses who use 'marchese',
: or 'conte', or even 'principe', on basis of
: a HRE title belonging to their house.
:
: All this goes -and often quite legitimately-
: against the over-simplified idea of *all*
: italian cadets of noble houses being 'only'
: something like: don, dei principi di...
:
: -------------
:
: btw, an ignorance of the existence of the
: princely house of Borghese is very telling.
: It should not be that easy of anyone having
: even a bit knowledge about royalty, to have
: avoided for example the fact that Napoleon's
: sister Pauline married a prince Borghese.
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: During the ancien regime there were many
: noble
: families in the Papal States (probably in a
: ratio comparably similar to many other
: states, including France), but I do not
: think there were that many princes.
:
: This is a list of the families who enjoied
: the title of "Principe Romano"
: (strictly linked to the city of Rome): some
: are extinct, like the Bonaparte (descendants
: of Lucien, prince of Canino), but I cannot
: exclude that rare other families from other
: cities might have received a princely title
: from the pope:
:
: Aldobrandini
: Altieri
: Barberini
: Bonaparte
: Boncompagni Ludovisi
: Borghese
: Chigi
: Colonna di Paliano
: Colonna di Sciarra
: Corsini
: Doria
: Ludovisi Boncompagni
: Principe di Montholon
: Odescalchi
: Orsini
: Pallavicini
: Rospigliosi
: Ruspoli
: Santacroce
: Strozzi
: Conti
: Torlonia
: Del Drago
: Gabrielli
: Massimo
: Spada
:
: Of course, as those families may have
: various members there is a tendency in Italy
: as well as in the US to call all of them
: princes (instead of "Don X of the
: princes of Y"), so this may give the
: impression that there are more.
:
: --Previous Message--
: There was a reality based TV dating show
: where women were competing to date an
: Italian prince and he was not from a family
: which I had ever heard of.
:
: You are referring to Prince Lorenzo
: Borghese. Are you sure that you have not
: heard of the House of Borghese? They had an
: enormous influence on art and architecture
: in Rome.
:
:
:
:
:
Message Thread:
« Back to thread