Posted by Cabri
on 10/6/2009, 17:35:39, in reply to "Re: Baudouin was in his own very act, not titled as Prince..."
84.190.213.8
for the title may look at Le Petit Gotha page 238 : it is SM roi des belges, prince de Belgique
--Previous Message--
:
: Erik is alleging that in strength of
: Baudouin's titles, Fabiola became and is:
: Fabiola, Queen of the Belgians, Princess of
: Belgium
:
: which would men that Baudouin were: king of
: the Belgians, Prince of Belgium.
:
: However, his own acts do not show any signal
: of that second part, 'prince of Belgium'.
:
: I seriously doubt the applicability of that
: title to a reigning monarch of the very same
: country, and also consequently to his
: consort, a queen.
: At least, the alleged second title is pretty
: well under suppression in the king's Acts,
: because the acts, which are most official
: documents, appear not to use that title of
: them.
:
: By the way, what worth is there to allege a
: title which is not in any observable use in
: real world ????
: Not in their biographies a d so in the
: monarchy's pages, not in the king's decrees
: and acts, ....
:
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: That is not as strange as you believe. I
: have various decrees/laws which do not give
: the full title of the king/emperor but just
: the main title.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: this act, dealing with the very matter of
: titles,
:
:
:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/msg/4adf564953b339e8
: (Dag posted that link)
: curiously has 'Baudouin, Roi des Belges' as
: its promulgator;
: and he does not have any sort of princely
: title there in that official text.
:
: I presume that he and his ministers and
: counsels in the government system, would
: have known to include it to his titulary in
: this promulgation, had he really been Prince
: of Belgium.
: So, why is that princely title mssing from
: the text of the act ??
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: sorry, Marlene, but that's not right !
: I have in my possession a list of the
: official titles beared by the Belgian
: sovereigns & princes (coming from the
: court):
: when she married, Doña Fabiola Mora y Aragón
: became HM Fabiola, Queen of the Belgians,
: Princess of Belgium - when her husband died,
: she became HM Queen Fabiola, Princess of
: Belgium
: other examples:
: - when HRH Princess Astrid, Princess of
: Sweden married, she became HRH Princess
: Astrid, Princess of Sweden, Duchess of
: Brabant, Princess of Belgium - when her
: husband acceded to the throne, she became HM
: Astrid, Queen of the Belgians, Princess of
: Sweden, Princess of Belgium
: - when HRH Princess Elisabeth, Duchess in
: Bavaria married, she became HRH Princess
: Elisabeth, Duchess in Bavaria, Princess of
: Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of
: Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - when her husband acceded
: to the throne, she became HM Elisabeth,
: Queen of the Belgians, Duchess in Bavaria,
: Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony,
: Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - when her
: husband died, she became HM Queen Elisabeth,
: Duchess in Bavaria, Princess of Belgium
:
: --Previous Message--
: Fabiola's title is HM Queen Fabiola of the
: Belgians ... no princess attached. The queen
: trumps princess
: --Previous Message--
: In Belgium, the title of Queen Fabiola is:
: H.M. Queen Fabiola, Princess of Belgium (in
: French : S.M. la Reine Fabiola, Princesse de
: Belgique)
:
: --Previous Message--
: To clarify the subject of titles for dowager
: queens, I wanted to ask: just what exactly
: is the FORMAL title for the widow of a king
: (granted that there may be slight variations
: from country to country)?
:
: Correct me if I'm mistaken, but is the full,
: formal style and title of the widow of
: Belgium's King Baudouin "Her Majesty
: Fabiola, Dowager Queen of the
: Belgians"? If so, I would imagine
: shortened (if still formal) variations to be
: "Her Majesty Dowager Queen
: Fabiola" (in a national context) or
: "Dowager Queen Fabiola of the
: Belgians" (in an international
: context).
:
: However, I believe she is known mainly by
: her informal titles -- i.e. "Her
: Majesty Queen Fabiola" (within Belgium)
: and "Queen Fabiola of the
: Belgians" (outside Belgium).
:
: At first, I thought that perhaps the widow
: of a king might be known as "Her
: Majesty the Dowager Queen" (nationally)
: or "The Dowager Queen of __"
: (internationally). The trouble with this
: title, however, lies in the fact that one
: can theoretically have two dowager queens
: living -- as was the case in the UK,
: 1952-1953. As such, there would be too much
: ambiguity in such a title -- even with
: attempts to specify by the use of an article
: ("the").
:
: Speaking of the UK, let me get straight the
: progressive styles and titles of King
: William IV's wife: I believe she was, in
: succession, "HH Princess Adelheid of
: Saxe-Meiningent" (from her birth in
: 1792 to her marriage in 1818; or perhaps she
: was only a HSH early on?), "HRH The
: Duchess of Clarence" (between her
: marriage in 1818 to her husband's accession
: to the British throne in 1830), "HM The
: Queen", nationally, and "The Queen
: of the UK", internationally (during the
: years of her husband's reign), and "HM
: Adelaide, Dowager Queen of the UK"
: (from her husband's death in 1837 to her own
: in 1845). Is all this correct?
:
: I didn't wish to sound presumptuous, but I
: wanted to create distinctions for a queen's
: style and title, from a national and
: international perspective. It only stands
: to reason, after all, that the international
: community cannot be expected to
: automatically understand just who exactly is
: being referred to, when "The
: Queen" is mentioned. Also, there is no
: obligation to be especially reverential by
: using the style "Majesty", when
: mentioning a foreign queen (that being said,
: one is obliged out of courtesy to use this
: in the context of a personal meeting or
: greeting -- even if the queen in question is
: not your own. That is: if I came face to
: face with the Spanish queen, then although
: I'm not a Spaniard myself, I would be
: obliged to call her "Your Majesty"
: -- although not to go so far as to curtsy).
:
: Conversely, in a national setting, it really
: makes no sense to refer to Sofia as
: "The Queen of Spain". I don't
: consider it pretentious for a Spaniard to
: assume that a fellow Spaniard knows whom he
: is referring to, when mentioning "Her
: Majesty the Queen" -- even in the
: context of distinguishing her from another
: queen (say during a state visit), referred
: to as "The Queen of Sweden."
:
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