Posted by Johan on 10/6/2009, 13:52:28, in reply to "Re: Baudouin was in his own very act, not titled as Prince..."
164.140.159.143
During the civil ceremonies the groom is mentioned by his full names and than son of:
HM Albert King of the Belgians, prince of Belgium, prince of Liege and HM Queen Paola of the princes of Ruffo di Calabria.
Those titles were actually announced in all three national languages.
--Previous Message--
:
: i think this requires somewhat preciser and
: clearer in identification
: for and about the said marriage records.
: Johan, could you clarify.
:
: I find no problem in that Philippe and
: Laurent were titled 'prince of Belgium' when
: they married.
: do you mean their marriage records ??
:
: whereas, do you mean that ALSO king Albert
: II (who was already king at the time of said
: marriages), would have been titled
: officially as 'prince of Belgium' in his
: sons' marriage official records.
: was Albert ????
: and, why would a father of any bridegroom
: have any place in the marriage record of his
: son ??? In my country, marriage records
: literally record the spouses who marry, but
: not as such any of their relatives.
: Therefore, I tend to find it odd that the
: sons' official marriage records would have
: the name of their father mentioned, let
: alone mentioned with utmost correctness.
: After all, bridegroom's father is a side
: person in such marriage, and not too much
: care can be expected from a mention of him.
: for all we know, not all bridegrooms in this
: world actually even know who were their
: father....
:
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: Still it's accurate.
: Albert II was styled as such as well and the
: title was used during the civil marriages of
: both his sons (his daughter married before
: he became king). Of Belgium/Van Belgie/De
: Belgique/Von Belgien is also the family-name
: of the Royal family even though the dynasty
: is of Saxe-Coburg.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Erik is alleging that in strength of
: Baudouin's titles, Fabiola became and is:
: Fabiola, Queen of the Belgians, Princess of
: Belgium
:
: which would men that Baudouin were: king of
: the Belgians, Prince of Belgium.
:
: However, his own acts do not show any signal
: of that second part, 'prince of Belgium'.
:
: I seriously doubt the applicability of that
: title to a reigning monarch of the very same
: country, and also consequently to his
: consort, a queen.
: At least, the alleged second title is pretty
: well under suppression in the king's Acts,
: because the acts, which are most official
: documents, appear not to use that title of
: them.
:
: By the way, what worth is there to allege a
: title which is not in any observable use in
: real world ????
: Not in their biographies a d so in the
: monarchy's pages, not in the king's decrees
: and acts, ....
:
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: That is not as strange as you believe. I
: have various decrees/laws which do not give
: the full title of the king/emperor but just
: the main title.
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: this act, dealing with the very matter of
: titles,
:
:
:
:
:
: http://groups.google.com/group/alt.talk.royalty/msg/4adf564953b339e8
: (Dag posted that link)
: curiously has 'Baudouin, Roi des Belges' as
: its promulgator;
: and he does not have any sort of princely
: title there in that official text.
:
: I presume that he and his ministers and
: counsels in the government system, would
: have known to include it to his titulary in
: this promulgation, had he really been Prince
: of Belgium.
: So, why is that princely title mssing from
: the text of the act ??
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
: sorry, Marlene, but that's not right !
: I have in my possession a list of the
: official titles beared by the Belgian
: sovereigns & princes (coming from the
: court):
: when she married, Doña Fabiola Mora y Aragón
: became HM Fabiola, Queen of the Belgians,
: Princess of Belgium - when her husband died,
: she became HM Queen Fabiola, Princess of
: Belgium
: other examples:
: - when HRH Princess Astrid, Princess of
: Sweden married, she became HRH Princess
: Astrid, Princess of Sweden, Duchess of
: Brabant, Princess of Belgium - when her
: husband acceded to the throne, she became HM
: Astrid, Queen of the Belgians, Princess of
: Sweden, Princess of Belgium
: - when HRH Princess Elisabeth, Duchess in
: Bavaria married, she became HRH Princess
: Elisabeth, Duchess in Bavaria, Princess of
: Belgium, Duchess of Saxony, Princess of
: Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - when her husband acceded
: to the throne, she became HM Elisabeth,
: Queen of the Belgians, Duchess in Bavaria,
: Princess of Belgium, Duchess of Saxony,
: Princess of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha - when her
: husband died, she became HM Queen Elisabeth,
: Duchess in Bavaria, Princess of Belgium
:
: --Previous Message--
: Fabiola's title is HM Queen Fabiola of the
: Belgians ... no princess attached. The queen
: trumps princess
: --Previous Message--
: In Belgium, the title of Queen Fabiola is:
: H.M. Queen Fabiola, Princess of Belgium (in
: French : S.M. la Reine Fabiola, Princesse de
: Belgique)
:
: --Previous Message--
: To clarify the subject of titles for dowager
: queens, I wanted to ask: just what exactly
: is the FORMAL title for the widow of a king
: (granted that there may be slight variations
: from country to country)?
:
: Correct me if I'm mistaken, but is the full,
: formal style and title of the widow of
: Belgium's King Baudouin "Her Majesty
: Fabiola, Dowager Queen of the
: Belgians"? If so, I would imagine
: shortened (if still formal) variations to be
: "Her Majesty Dowager Queen
: Fabiola" (in a national context) or
: "Dowager Queen Fabiola of the
: Belgians" (in an international
: context).
:
: However, I believe she is known mainly by
: her informal titles -- i.e. "Her
: Majesty Queen Fabiola" (within Belgium)
: and "Queen Fabiola of the
: Belgians" (outside Belgium).
:
: At first, I thought that perhaps the widow
: of a king might be known as "Her
: Majesty the Dowager Queen" (nationally)
: or "The Dowager Queen of __"
: (internationally). The trouble with this
: title, however, lies in the fact that one
: can theoretically have two dowager queens
: living -- as was the case in the UK,
: 1952-1953. As such, there would be too much
: ambiguity in such a title -- even with
: attempts to specify by the use of an article
: ("the").
:
: Speaking of the UK, let me get straight the
: progressive styles and titles of King
: William IV's wife: I believe she was, in
: succession, "HH Princess Adelheid of
: Saxe-Meiningent" (from her birth in
: 1792 to her marriage in 1818; or perhaps she
: was only a HSH early on?), "HRH The
: Duchess of Clarence" (between her
: marriage in 1818 to her husband's accession
: to the British throne in 1830), "HM The
: Queen", nationally, and "The Queen
: of the UK", internationally (during the
: years of her husband's reign), and "HM
: Adelaide, Dowager Queen of the UK"
: (from her husband's death in 1837 to her own
: in 1845). Is all this correct?
:
: I didn't wish to sound presumptuous, but I
: wanted to create distinctions for a queen's
: style and title, from a national and
: international perspective. It only stands
: to reason, after all, that the international
: community cannot be expected to
: automatically understand just who exactly is
: being referred to, when "The
: Queen" is mentioned. Also, there is no
: obligation to be especially reverential by
: using the style "Majesty", when
: mentioning a foreign queen (that being said,
: one is obliged out of courtesy to use this
: in the context of a personal meeting or
: greeting -- even if the queen in question is
: not your own. That is: if I came face to
: face with the Spanish queen, then although
: I'm not a Spaniard myself, I would be
: obliged to call her "Your Majesty"
: -- although not to go so far as to curtsy).
:
: Conversely, in a national setting, it really
: makes no sense to refer to Sofia as
: "The Queen of Spain". I don't
: consider it pretentious for a Spaniard to
: assume that a fellow Spaniard knows whom he
: is referring to, when mentioning "Her
: Majesty the Queen" -- even in the
: context of distinguishing her from another
: queen (say during a state visit), referred
: to as "The Queen of Sweden."
:
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