Posted by Marlene on 9/5/2008, 23:26:33, in reply to "Re: are you sure Samuel Sandel is Maria's son"
8.15.250.124
The title cannot be translated to Lord which applies solely to British noble titles - and to Lord of Parliament, the 5th grade of the Scottish peerage.
--Previous Message--
:
: In terminology I use, and certainly intend
: to use in the future too because imo it is
: well-thought-through, a person who receives,
: with grant of nobility, a hereditary seat
: and vote in the country's chamber of nobles,
: is a Lord.
:
: It's that in scottish history, where there
: 'baron' means a tad different thing, and
: certainly is not the same as the 'Lord of
: Parliament'. It's that in english history,
: where -confusingly- at least
: retrospectively, it happens to mean 'baron'
: at the same time (the usage of England
: perhaps is the only place in the world where
: Lord and Baron are interchangeable, whereby
: some would think them as synonymous, which
: thinking is mistaken in my opinion).
:
: So, when a Swedish monarch created a
: 'friherre', I tend to translate that as
: Baron. When a Swedish monarch created a
: nobleman, with a hereditary seat and vote in
: the uppermost House of the Riksdag of the
: Estates, I tend to translate that as Lord.
:
: Translations are possibly never totally
: accurate in all aspects. Still, translations
: must be used. I think only few in this board
: would have a grasp of the contents, if I
: were to write in my mother tongue here
:
: I have nowhere alleged that Samuel Sandel
: were created a baron. He certainly was not.
: His second surviving son was so created in
: 1809, which however is not that interesting
: as the same guy then in 1815 got created
: count. The higher title is in use of him
: usually.
:
: Instead, according to record, on 9 May 1772,
: king Gustav III of Sweden, an old homo
: afaik, granted Samuel Sandel a patent of
: nobility, together with a hereditary seat
: and vote in the uppermost House in the
: Riksdag of the Estates.
:
: ---
:
: Maternal filiation of Samuel Sandel (born 14
: Dec 1724 at Hedemora):
: Elgenstierna, vol VII, sub: Sandels, says
: so. According to that -admittedly,
: secondary- source, Samuel was son of Mary
: (Maria) Dahlbo, herself according to the
: same source, being born at Mantua Creek in
: America...
:
: Elgenstierna generally received its details
: from what the newly ennobled guy had
: reported to the Riddarhuset about his family
: relations when getting formally introduced
: to his peers in the House. Additionally,
: such details may have come to Riddarhuset
: from lutheran parishes relevant to family
: history of the family in question.
:
: I have no reason to suspect that specific
: detail in Elgenstierna, namely, as it is
: probably beyond doubt that Samuel Sandel was
: born as son of 'kyrkoherde' Anders Sandel,
: who according to undisputed record was
: husband of Mary Dahlbo,
: then a son born to the esteemed pastor in
: the lifetime of his wedded wife Mary Dahlbo,
: would practically necessarily be born by
: that very wife. I believe there would be
: some information about a scandal available
: even to us, had the good pastor got a
: recognized son (who later got ennobled, thus
: was a prominent citizen), with same surname
: no less, by some other woman than his
: living, breathing wife.
:
: As to Mary Dahlbo's undeniably high age at
: the birth of Samuel, it was still only
: something like 42 years, thus biologically
: possible to get pregnant and give birth.
: And actually not so rare in those days: if a
: woman got started in giving births, and her
: husband survived and was not incapable, then
: fairly often, they continued to have a birth
: every now and then until the wife turned
: something like 45. You see, no effective
: contraceptives, and an ideology that
: children are a blessing of god, and the
: couple just, mmmm, 'lived together'...
: sharing a bed...
:
:
:
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Maria Dahlbo gave birth to a daughter
: Magdalena in 1704. Are you saying that she
: also had a child, Samuel in 1724 when she
: was 42 years old. Moreover, Lord Sandel
: would indicate a peerage in the British
: isles, not Sweden. Baron Sandels does not
: translate to lord Sandels.
:
: Can you provide something substantial to
: show that Maria was Samuel's mother.
:
:
: http://web.telia.com/~u25013696/delaware.htm
:
: Peter Matsson Dalbo
: Blev högst 52 år.
:
: Far: Mats Hansson (1620 - 1654)
: Mor: Elisabet Matsdotter (1622 - 1700)
:
: Född: 1647 Wicaco, Pennsylvania, USA
: Död: 1699-10-03 Little Mantua Creek, USA
:
:
:
:
:
:
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Familj med Catharine Rambo (1655 - 1722)
: Barn:
: Maria Matsson Dalbo (1682 - 1739)
:
:
:
: Umm. the Swedes of thar era do not have a
: patronymic 'Matsson' for females. Such is
: generally strictly for male offspring, as
: far as we talk about those days and not the
: most recent century of 1900s.
: The patronymic in that case should be
: 'Matsdotter'.
: I do not believe in any transgendered
: phenomenon in that very case.
: The source having such confused namings,
: would't be too reliable, would it?
:
:
:
:
:
:
:
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Noteringar
: Flyttade 1684 till Mantua Creek i nuvarande
: New Jersey där han blev kolonins största
: jordägare och ledamot av New Jerseys
: fullmäktigeförsamling. Enl Stefan Sörensson.
:
:
:
:
:
: --Previous Message--
:
: Curiously enough, the late princess Diana
: was not the only mother of prominent
: European royals with roots in America.
:
: For example Sophia of Bavaria, who is going
: to succeed in heirship of Jacobite claim to
: the British thrones, has a clear ancestry in
: Pennsylvania via her mother
:
:
: yeoman Peter Matsson, plantage owner in
: Mantua Creek; married (16 February 1674 in
: Bucks County, Pennsylvania)
: Catherine Rambo (bc 1655, New Sweden,
: Pennsylvania; d in July 1698, Gloucester
: County, New Jersey).
: Their children included:
:
: Mary Dahlbo (moved from America to Sweden; b
: 11 May 1682 at Mantua Creek, New Jersey,
: Pennsylvania, North America; d 5 Feb 1739 at
: Hedemora, Dalecarlia, Sweden); married (22
: Feb 1704)
: reverend Anders Sandel, Provost over Swedish
: parishes in America, Head Pastor of Hedemora
: (b 30 Nov 1671 at Hållnäs, priest's
: residence, Sweden; d 11 May 1744 at
: Hedemora, Sweden).
: Their children included:
:
: Samuel Sandel, 1st Lord Sandels (b 14 Dec
: 1724 at Hedemora; d 28 March 1784 at
: Stockholm), mineral chemist, high official
: in Mining Department of Swedish government,
: titled Councillor of Mountains, became
: ennobled on 9 May 1772 by king Gustav III;
: married (20 Nov 1753)
: Katarina Elisabet Brandt (b 1735-11-14; d
: 1782-06-04 at Stockholm) [daughter of Georg
: Brandt, a famed chemist, metallurgist, and
: his wife Anna Maria Norn].
: Their second surviving son was:
:
: Field Marshal, count Johan August Sandels,
: Rigsstatholder of Norway, etc (b 31 Aug 1764
: at Stockholm, d 22 Jan 1831 at Stockholm);
: married
: baroness Ulrika Elisabeth Hermelin.
: Their eldest son and heir was:
:
: Lt-Gen, count Samuel August Sandels, 2.Greve
: Sandels (b. 1810; d. 1892); married
: Hedvig Henrietta Emilie Augusta Tersmeden (b
: 17 Aug 1829; d 25 Jun 1899).
: Their child was:
:
: Augusta Sandels (b 12 May 1853; d 14 Dec
: 1941); married
: Philipp, Fürst zu Eulenburg und Hertefeld (b
: 12 Feb 1847; d 17 Sep 1921).
: Their children included:
:
: countess Viktoria of Eulenburg (b 13 Jul
: 1886; d 23 Sep 1967); married
: Professor Otto Haas-Heye (b 16 Dec 1879; d 9
: Jun 1959).
: Their daughter was:
:
: Ottora Haas-Heye (b 13 Feb 1910; d 17 Jul
: 2001); married
: count Carl Ludvig Douglas (b 26 Jul 1908; d
: 21 Jan 1961).
: their children included:
:
: countess Elisabeth Douglas (b 31 Dec 1940
: -> ); married
: prince Max Emanuel of Bavaria, Duke in
: Bavaria (b 21 Jan 1937 - > ).
: Their eldest daughter is:
:
: Sophia of Bavaria (b 28 Oct 1967 -> );
: married
: Alois, Hereditary Prince of the state of
: Liechtenstein (b 12 Jun 1968 ->).
: Their children includes their eldest son,
: the boy who is seemingly going to be in some
: future:
:
: Venceslas I, titular King of England,
: Scotland and Ireland (b 24 May 1995 -> )
:
:
:
:
:
:
