Posted by M.Sjostrom (Sjostrom) on 9/5/2008, 22:14:04, in reply to "are you sure Samuel Sandel is Maria's son"
82.181.239.182
In terminology I use, and certainly intend to use in the future too because imo it is well-thought-through, a person who receives, with grant of nobility, a hereditary seat and vote in the country's chamber of nobles, is a Lord.
It's that in scottish history, where there 'baron' means a tad different thing, and certainly is not the same as the 'Lord of Parliament'. It's that in english history, where -confusingly- at least retrospectively, it happens to mean 'baron' at the same time (the usage of England perhaps is the only place in the world where Lord and Baron are interchangeable, whereby some would think them as synonymous, which thinking is mistaken in my opinion).
So, when a Swedish monarch created a 'friherre', I tend to translate that as Baron. When a Swedish monarch created a nobleman, with a hereditary seat and vote in the uppermost House of the Riksdag of the Estates, I tend to translate that as Lord.
Translations are possibly never totally accurate in all aspects. Still, translations must be used. I think only few in this board would have a grasp of the contents, if I were to write in my mother tongue here 
I have nowhere alleged that Samuel Sandel were created a baron. He certainly was not. His second surviving son was so created in 1809, which however is not that interesting as the same guy then in 1815 got created count. The higher title is in use of him usually.
Instead, according to record, on 9 May 1772, king Gustav III of Sweden, an old homo afaik, granted Samuel Sandel a patent of nobility, together with a hereditary seat and vote in the uppermost House in the Riksdag of the Estates.
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Maternal filiation of Samuel Sandel (born 14 Dec 1724 at Hedemora):
Elgenstierna, vol VII, sub: Sandels, says so. According to that -admittedly, secondary- source, Samuel was son of Mary (Maria) Dahlbo, herself according to the same source, being born at Mantua Creek in America...
Elgenstierna generally received its details from what the newly ennobled guy had reported to the Riddarhuset about his family relations when getting formally introduced to his peers in the House. Additionally, such details may have come to Riddarhuset from lutheran parishes relevant to family history of the family in question.
I have no reason to suspect that specific detail in Elgenstierna, namely, as it is probably beyond doubt that Samuel Sandel was born as son of 'kyrkoherde' Anders Sandel, who according to undisputed record was husband of Mary Dahlbo,
then a son born to the esteemed pastor in the lifetime of his wedded wife Mary Dahlbo, would practically necessarily be born by that very wife. I believe there would be some information about a scandal available even to us, had the good pastor got a recognized son (who later got ennobled, thus was a prominent citizen), with same surname no less, by some other woman than his living, breathing wife.
As to Mary Dahlbo's undeniably high age at the birth of Samuel, it was still only something like 42 years, thus biologically possible to get pregnant and give birth.
And actually not so rare in those days: if a woman got started in giving births, and her husband survived and was not incapable, then fairly often, they continued to have a birth every now and then until the wife turned something like 45. You see, no effective contraceptives, and an ideology that children are a blessing of god, and the couple just, mmmm, 'lived together'... sharing a bed...
--Previous Message--
:
: Maria Dahlbo gave birth to a daughter
: Magdalena in 1704. Are you saying that she
: also had a child, Samuel in 1724 when she
: was 42 years old. Moreover, Lord Sandel
: would indicate a peerage in the British
: isles, not Sweden. Baron Sandels does not
: translate to lord Sandels.
:
: Can you provide something substantial to
: show that Maria was Samuel's mother.
:
: http://web.telia.com/~u25013696/delaware.htm
:
: Peter Matsson Dalbo
: Blev högst 52 år.
:
: Far: Mats Hansson (1620 - 1654)
: Mor: Elisabet Matsdotter (1622 - 1700)
:
: Född: 1647 Wicaco, Pennsylvania, USA
: Död: 1699-10-03 Little Mantua Creek, USA
:
:
:
:
:
: --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Familj med Catharine Rambo (1655 - 1722)
: Barn:
: Maria Matsson Dalbo (1682 - 1739)
:
Umm. the Swedes of thar era do not have a patronymic 'Matsson' for females. Such is generally strictly for male offspring, as far as we talk about those days and not the most recent century of 1900s.
The patronymic in that case should be 'Matsdotter'.
I do not believe in any transgendered phenomenon in that very case.
The source having such confused namings, would't be too reliable, would it?
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: Noteringar
: Flyttade 1684 till Mantua Creek i nuvarande
: New Jersey där han blev kolonins största
: jordägare och ledamot av New Jerseys
: fullmäktigeförsamling. Enl Stefan Sörensson.
:
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: --Previous Message--
:
: Curiously enough, the late princess Diana
: was not the only mother of prominent
: European royals with roots in America.
:
: For example Sophia of Bavaria, who is going
: to succeed in heirship of Jacobite claim to
: the British thrones, has a clear ancestry in
: Pennsylvania via her mother
:
:
: yeoman Peter Matsson, plantage owner in
: Mantua Creek; married (16 February 1674 in
: Bucks County, Pennsylvania)
: Catherine Rambo (bc 1655, New Sweden,
: Pennsylvania; d in July 1698, Gloucester
: County, New Jersey).
: Their children included:
:
: Mary Dahlbo (moved from America to Sweden; b
: 11 May 1682 at Mantua Creek, New Jersey,
: Pennsylvania, North America; d 5 Feb 1739 at
: Hedemora, Dalecarlia, Sweden); married (22
: Feb 1704)
: reverend Anders Sandel, Provost over Swedish
: parishes in America, Head Pastor of Hedemora
: (b 30 Nov 1671 at Hållnäs, priest's
: residence, Sweden; d 11 May 1744 at
: Hedemora, Sweden).
: Their children included:
:
: Samuel Sandel, 1st Lord Sandels (b 14 Dec
: 1724 at Hedemora; d 28 March 1784 at
: Stockholm), mineral chemist, high official
: in Mining Department of Swedish government,
: titled Councillor of Mountains, became
: ennobled on 9 May 1772 by king Gustav III;
: married (20 Nov 1753)
: Katarina Elisabet Brandt (b 1735-11-14; d
: 1782-06-04 at Stockholm) [daughter of Georg
: Brandt, a famed chemist, metallurgist, and
: his wife Anna Maria Norn].
: Their second surviving son was:
:
: Field Marshal, count Johan August Sandels,
: Rigsstatholder of Norway, etc (b 31 Aug 1764
: at Stockholm, d 22 Jan 1831 at Stockholm);
: married
: baroness Ulrika Elisabeth Hermelin.
: Their eldest son and heir was:
:
: Lt-Gen, count Samuel August Sandels, 2.Greve
: Sandels (b. 1810; d. 1892); married
: Hedvig Henrietta Emilie Augusta Tersmeden (b
: 17 Aug 1829; d 25 Jun 1899).
: Their child was:
:
: Augusta Sandels (b 12 May 1853; d 14 Dec
: 1941); married
: Philipp, Fürst zu Eulenburg und Hertefeld (b
: 12 Feb 1847; d 17 Sep 1921).
: Their children included:
:
: countess Viktoria of Eulenburg (b 13 Jul
: 1886; d 23 Sep 1967); married
: Professor Otto Haas-Heye (b 16 Dec 1879; d 9
: Jun 1959).
: Their daughter was:
:
: Ottora Haas-Heye (b 13 Feb 1910; d 17 Jul
: 2001); married
: count Carl Ludvig Douglas (b 26 Jul 1908; d
: 21 Jan 1961).
: their children included:
:
: countess Elisabeth Douglas (b 31 Dec 1940
: -> ); married
: prince Max Emanuel of Bavaria, Duke in
: Bavaria (b 21 Jan 1937 - > ).
: Their eldest daughter is:
:
: Sophia of Bavaria (b 28 Oct 1967 -> );
: married
: Alois, Hereditary Prince of the state of
: Liechtenstein (b 12 Jun 1968 ->).
: Their children includes their eldest son,
: the boy who is seemingly going to be in some
: future:
:
: Venceslas I, titular King of England,
: Scotland and Ireland (b 24 May 1995 -> )
:
:
:
:
